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[Montague]

So... Basically he's a commienazi? For reals?

I can't really say anything about the rest of it, except that I really wouldn't be surprised if it's true. :/

Well, Nazi is just a shortening of the German phrase for 'National Socialist', so...

Yeah, but Nazi Germany was fascist, not socialist. Hitler hated socialism and communism. Calling their party National Socialist was purely a ploy to get the working class on their side.

There really isn't any real difference between communism and facism. They are both statist tyrannies with command economies, both systems demand sacrifice from it's people and treat them as means to a end. The ideologies are really just two flavors of the same poison.

Anyways, I never understood why voting takes place on tuesdays and not on a saturday or something. Or have them held on fridays and make it a national holiday? That'd be badass. I think they can take out a workday once every 2 years or whatever. It's really no wonder why voter turn-out is terrible when you have to make time out of the workday to go it. So the only people you can rely on to make decisions about electing national leadership are unemployed people and housewives/husbands or whatever.

[Glowcat]

There really isn't any real difference between communism and facism. They are both statist tyrannies with command economies, both systems demand sacrifice from it's people and treat them as means to a end. The ideologies are really just two flavors of the same poison.

I am incredulous at your ability to type such prejudiced trash while understanding jack all about the subject.

At least if you said socialism and fascism were the same I'd at least be more understanding of the mistake, but equating communism to fascism is pain-inducing ignorance fueled by conservative paranoid rhetoric. When you call a stateless system like communism 'statist' you've become a living caricature of all that's absurd with America's conservative movement.

[kaijyuu]

There really isn't any real difference between communism and facism.

Err, not really.

Communism is first and foremost an economic system. It came as a direct response to capitalism. An extreme oversimplification would be that communism applies the ideals of democracy to businesses. Instead of the leader(s) at the top having all the power just 'cause, the power comes from the employees (similar to arguments that power in a government comes from the people, not intrinsically held by the leadership). Communism backs this up by having common ownership; no employee owns more of the company than another, as they all own it equally.

In theory, anyway.

Also communism abolishes social classes. Not just abolishing the good ol' classes like nobility, but economic classes as well. No one's significantly richer than anyone else; they can't be due to common ownership.

Again, in theory.


Of course, it's failed pretty spectacularly on any large scale. To enforce all this stuff requires a great deal of control from the government. This is where the fascism sneaks in (or whatever you want to call it; complete control by the government). Fascism (see previous note) isn't intrinsic to the system, but still rather endemic due to the leaders getting corrupt. Social classes sneak back in in the wake of leaders giving themselves and their friends special treatment. All this power also gives the temptation to crush political opposition, thereby nuking the democracy angle. Uh oh.


Communism just isn't stable. Too much power in the governments hands and it'll devolve into fascism as they give themselves favors. Too much power in the people's hands and it'll devolve into capitalism as they vote themselves favors (democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner, remember). And even if it was stable, it's not competitive economically against capitalism.


EDIT: Might be getting my words mixed up here. I think people get what I mean, though; point out any odd word choice if you wish.

[Aqizzar]

When we have a Communist candidate for President (with more than five votes), then we'll talk Communism.  When we have a Fascist candidate for President, then we'll talk Fascism.  When they're fighting over America's husk, then we'll compare them.

Don't make me get the hose.

[Phmcw]

But you have a wannabe dicator look : http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/former-cia-officer-charged-in-leaks/2012/01/23/gIQA3AhTLQ_story.html

See : he talked to journalists, he's a snip, kill him! Hey maybe they'll find out he raped someone too.
Yeah that's not Manning : it's just the guy who informed you of what happened in  Guantanamo, John Kiriakou.
The article said that his bond is set at 250 000$. He is the sixth target of a leaks-related prosecution since President Obama took office, exceeding the total number of comparable prosecutions under all previous administrations combined.

Those damn republicans.... ho wait... hmm they need to get crazier so that the democrat candidate still look good, I propose that they announce the end of all health care, no tax for the rich, another war, forbid atheism and criminalize homosexuality! Ho wait...

[palsch]

Wait, do you really thing that prosecuting someone who appears to have revealed the identities of two undercover agents, one of whom was involved in the capture of Abu Zubaydah, is acting like a dictator?

If you want to moan about Obama prosecuting whistle blowers, fine. But this isn't a whistle-blower. This is a self-promoting idiot who flat out lied about the US's torture methods and their effectiveness on TV, then tried to get a book out based on that while lying to the CIA to try to include classified information in that book.

[Phmcw]

Ho wait, He is an idiot now, right like Manning, who wanted to avenge his homosexuality, or Assange who is an egomaniac.
That or you're taking ad nominem attacks at face value, and are willing to close your eyes on this matter because it suit your view of the world.
Yeah he look like an idiot, but I guarantee that you'll look like an idiot too if the DoD decide to make you look like one, he may even be one, given that he seems to support those practices and be a big mouthed idiot rather than an human right activist.

What matter is that this is an nth attack on whistle-blower by Obama's administration who seems to be dead set on prosecuting anyone who talk to the media about American abuse.

[RedKing]

Here's the thing about people who work with classified secret material: A big part of your job is KEEPING THAT SHIT SECRET. I don't understand why this is so hard for some people to process. If you're a soldier, and you willingly and knowingly disclose classified material, that's a massive dereliction of duty and grounds for a court-martial. If you're a CIA agent (even once you're out of the agency) and you disclose classified material, that's a breach of trust and it is grounds for prosecution. Period.

I don't give a whit about the personal qualities of Manning or Kiriakou. Bottom line is, they did something they KNOW they're not supposed to do, and they're going to pay the price for that.

[jester]

Here's the thing about people who work with classified secret material: A big part of your job is KEEPING THAT SHIT SECRET. I don't understand why this is so hard for some people to process. If you're a soldier, and you willingly and knowingly disclose classified material, that's a massive dereliction of duty and grounds for a court-martial. If you're a CIA agent (even once you're out of the agency) and you disclose classified material, that's a breach of trust and it is grounds for prosecution. Period.

I don't give a whit about the personal qualities of Manning or Kiriakou. Bottom line is, they did something they KNOW they're not supposed to do, and they're going to pay the price for that.

Problem with stuff like this being (and I admit I dont know much about these actual cases) the people working for these types of organizations first loyalties should be to the people of their country, not the organization they are working for.  So if the director of the CIA has his daughters ex tortured and killed, then dumps it in the 'state secret' bin, the patriotic thing to do is report it.  If you are a soldier and your commanding officer is ordering atrocities that will eventually mean the enemy will feel justified in torturing/maiming/killing your comrades/the people you are meant to protect because you have been at it like fiends, then said officer orders you not to tell anybody, well.... Fuck him.

  Not reporting this stuff is a greater failure of your duty to the people you are meant to serve as well as your comrades in arms as its going to cost alot more of their lives in the long term if this sort of shit goes on.  You can serve the people, you can serve the country, but if you serve an organization you are basically just a merc.

  Lack of protection for whistle blowers also causes high level corruption as well

[Phmcw]

Here's the thing about people who work with classified secret material: A big part of your job is KEEPING THAT SHIT SECRET. I don't understand why this is so hard for some people to process. If you're a soldier, and you willingly and knowingly disclose classified material, that's a massive dereliction of duty and grounds for a court-martial. If you're a CIA agent (even once you're out of the agency) and you disclose classified material, that's a breach of trust and it is grounds for prosecution. Period.

I don't give a whit about the personal qualities of Manning or Kiriakou. Bottom line is, they did something they KNOW they're not supposed to do, and they're going to pay the price for that.

Because some of us did not forget recent history, and know our states is not above other : if your state is infringing international law, it's you duty as a citizen to breach the trust, to disobey and speak to the journalists and to your peoples. Nuremberg made this clear : if you don't do this, you're an accomplice and therefore guilty. I don't see what is hard to understand in that.

[Nadaka]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/signal/gingrich-fate-rises-does-obama-133152405.html

[palsch]

Ho wait, He is an idiot now, right like Manning, who wanted to avenge his homosexuality, or Assange who is an egomaniac.
That or you're taking ad nominem attacks at face value, and are willing to close your eyes on this matter because it suit your view of the world.
Yeah he look like an idiot, but I guarantee that you'll look like an idiot too if the DoD decide to make you look like one, he may even be one, given that he seems to support those practices and be a big mouthed idiot rather than an human right activist.

Let's be clear about this. The DoD had nothing to do with making him look like an idiot. They basically fought to stop him looking like an idiot.

He was the man who came forwards and said that Zubaydah was waterboarded once, for a few seconds, then spilled all sorts of important secrets. He made a strong case that torture worked on national TV, multiple times.

He was lying in all of those cases. This was revealed when the administration finally released memos concerning the torture, and then only after immunity was granted to those involved. This forced him to recant and admit he was making shit up.

These are not ad-hom attacks. These are examples of him being flippant and self promoting over more serious concerns, such as national security. The charges brought are entirely plausible in this context and extremely serious.

What matter is that this is an nth attack on whistle-blower by Obama's administration who seems to be dead set on prosecuting anyone who talk to the media about American abuse.

This man is not a whistleblower. He revealed classified information about security agents, not abuse. He defended abuse. Whistle blowers expose illegal activity, not legal activity that depends on secrecy for people to stay alive and effective in their work.

This is why, despite deep sympathy for Bradley Manning, I do feel he needs to be prosecuted. I want to see him treated leniently and humanely, but he broke the law in a manner that was irresponsible and dangerous. Had he only leaked material that showed illegal (or even arguably legal) acts that would be one thing. Indiscriminate leaking of classified material is quite another.


You have a strong point about Obama and whistle blower protection. But this isn't one of those cases and neither is Manning.

[RedKing]

Here's the thing: none of what Manning nor Kiriakou released were bombshell revelations. There was no "OMG Soylent Green is People!" moment.

And even if there were, that doesn't get them out of the punishment part. If they truly believed it was that important to release to risk their careers and freedom, then that's their decision. But you simply cannot let classified leaks like that go unpunished. I know a lot of people here won't agree, but that's where I stand. It's like people who practice civil disobedience complaining about being arrested. I may agree with your cause, but you know what? Laws are laws, and you should expect to be arrested. That's kind of how the whole thing works. If you leak classified material, the state is going to come down on you like a ton of bricks.

[Nadaka]

Here's the thing: none of what Manning nor Kiriakou released were bombshell revelations. There was no "OMG Soylent Green is People!" moment.

And even if there were, that doesn't get them out of the punishment part. If they truly believed it was that important to release to risk their careers and freedom, then that's their decision. But you simply cannot let classified leaks like that go unpunished. I know a lot of people here won't agree, but that's where I stand. It's like people who practice civil disobedience complaining about being arrested. I may agree with your cause, but you know what? Laws are laws, and you should expect to be arrested. That's kind of how the whole thing works. If you leak classified material, the state is going to come down on you like a ton of bricks.

I have to disagree with part of this. Manning did reveal some bombshells, among many other non-bombshells. Yes, he should receive punishment for leaking information. However that punishment should definitely not be indefinite confinement and torture, which is what he has been getting.

[RedKing]

I agree that his treatment has not been proper. And we should probably re-rail the thread, considering that Copper is still glaring at us from higher up in the page.