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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 770695 times)

hemmingjay

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5805 on: September 27, 2012, 02:50:02 pm »

Sorry about that, I'm pretty sure the site itself doesn't contain any malware.  Keep off the external links then.

I was looking at his methodology and it seems like he doesn't understand statistics. I might also take him a little more seriously if he had links to any news articles that weren't from The Examiner.
It seems to run deeper than that.  The "methodology" consists of assuming that there are more conservatives than liberals and messing with the polls accordingly.

Unfortunately despite what he says, his results are certainly skewed. He disregards the significance of the source of his poll. He claims that double weighting(his idea of double weighting) prevents republican poll results from skewing the overall picture but fails to account for the fact the fact that the majority of democrats and many independents avoid polls from such right wing "news" outlets. Qstarnews is absurd in it's editorial alignment. There are some left wing sources that are also bad, so it is best to choose a well renowned source such as FiveThirtyEight.com

In the end, all that matters is electoral votes and even though the popular vote is close, electoral predictions show a bloodbath. I personally am undecided in the election but am keeping a close eye as I have a vested interest in political database software.

BTW, I have 2 copies of The Political Machine 2012 on Steam if anyone wants one. Will give a copy to the first 2 people to PM me with an email address I can send it to. Copies went to Descan and RedKing.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 02:56:07 pm by hemmingjay »
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5806 on: September 27, 2012, 02:57:41 pm »

Well, and the justification for counter-weighting polls (this is hardly the only right-wing site I've seen that does this) is "liberal media bias". No statistical proof, just an assumption that "obviously these media pollers are lefties so they they think they're in the majority, but we know the silent majority really agrees with us, so let's just fudge the numbers to see what the vote would be like if that's true".


And then when the actual vote comes out closer to the media poll numbers, they take it as confirmation that the process is rigged and there's massive voter fraud.  ::)
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Lord Shonus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5807 on: September 27, 2012, 06:41:54 pm »

This analysis of a current Romney attack ad is mindboggling. How anyone expected this to pass even the flimsiest scrutiny is beyond me.

http://factcheck.org/2012/09/romney-ad-on-china-mangles-facts/
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5808 on: September 27, 2012, 07:01:08 pm »

I find it strange that the fact checker spent so many pixels talking about the tire spat and didn't mention how Chinese currency manipulation has decreased markedly since 2010.  Not only has the Yuan appreciated 7% against the dollar but the peg has been loosened greatly so that the currencies float against each other somewhat.


Before Obama was in office, the exchange rate was what the CCP decided it should be.  Now there is some flexibility.  This is Win-Win, US exports will help China keep inflation in hand while Chinese imports will help US employment.  This isn't a situation where you want to start a trade war, it's where you need diplomacy to let both sides go ahead.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5809 on: September 27, 2012, 07:02:33 pm »

Also, if USA-PRC trade collapses, everyone dies. A decent portion of the global economy is invested in that link alone.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5810 on: September 27, 2012, 07:06:42 pm »

Uh, trade doesn't really work like that unless you are a 17th century colonial power.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5811 on: September 27, 2012, 07:10:16 pm »

Trade collapse won't directly kill everyone, of course, but if USA-PRC trade collapses the effect on the global economy will be enough to buckle everyone else's economies as well. The EU is already in a state of economic weakness. This will lead to resource shortages, which will in turn lead to war.

Luckily, this is very unlikely.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5812 on: September 27, 2012, 07:41:48 pm »

I find it strange that the fact checker spent so many pixels talking about the tire spat and didn't mention how Chinese currency manipulation has decreased markedly since 2010.  Not only has the Yuan appreciated 7% against the dollar but the peg has been loosened greatly so that the currencies float against each other somewhat.


Before Obama was in office, the exchange rate was what the CCP decided it should be.  Now there is some flexibility.  This is Win-Win, US exports will help China keep inflation in hand while Chinese imports will help US employment.  This isn't a situation where you want to start a trade war, it's where you need diplomacy to let both sides go ahead.
The fact checker focused on the claims being made, namely that Obama's China policy allowed them to rip off US intellectual property and restricted military technology (although I wonder at the point of classifying the JSF too much, as it's being offered for export anyway, making secrets much harder to keep.) Despite currency manipulation being at the root of the attack, it's never mentioned or even implied, as it's too complicated for most people to comprehend (not a LCD attitude, it's quite high-level economics) while most of the people qualified to analyze the issue have already sounded the bullshit alarm.
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lemon10

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5813 on: September 27, 2012, 09:21:33 pm »

Trade collapse won't directly kill everyone, of course, but if USA-PRC trade collapses the effect on the global economy will be enough to buckle everyone else's economies as well. The EU is already in a state of economic weakness. This will lead to resource shortages, which will in turn lead to war.
I can't conceivably see it causing a bad economy leading to war, unless things get so bad that dictators start to take, it may kill lots of people in Africa or parts of Asia (due to a bad economy causing more starvation and civil wars), but it won't cause any wars in Europe or kill a significant number of people there.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5814 on: September 27, 2012, 11:08:04 pm »

A trade collapse doesn't make the economy collapse.  Like I said, we are not a 17th century trading empire.

Imagine for example that a collapse were to happen in US imports of tube socks from China.  We suppose China is producing just as many tube socks but US consumers suddenly decide that they hate Chinese tube socks and refuse to buy a single tube sock made in China.  Would Walmart go out of business?

Of course not, they'd just buy up whatever inventories of non-Chinese tube socks are around and put them on the shelves.  Then they'd place large orders for tube socks made in England and Vietnam and the US and so forth and three weeks later the socks they ordered would hit the shelves.  (Three weeks is the amount of time it takes to ship an item from any industrial location in the world to US shopping locations at bulk rates.)  Maybe there'd be a slight blip as a few stores would be short of tube socks for a week but it wouldn't be like in the 70s when there wasn't enough gas to go around, people know that the world has plenty of tube socks.

When the dust settles the composition of trade would have changed slightly and we'd be slightly less efficient but there wouldn't be any loss of economic activity, just a relocation.  When previously the tube socks were made in China, now they're being made somewhere else.  China would probably start exporting whatever was previously made by the textile mills that are making Walmart's new tube socks.  Maybe the textile mills would go out of business but China is fighting inflationary pressures right now which indicates that there are plenty of other goods the laid of workers could start making.  The world economy would be a little less efficient but inefficiency doesn't cause recessions, if anything it actually ends recessions.

Now you might say that the situation is different if we are talking about a trade war between China and the US in every good, not just tube socks.  But it's just a bunch of the same story told at once, going both ways.  And trade wars don't happen overnight so the various commercial and industrial importers and exporters would have time to prepare before the music stops.  At the end of the day we get a little less efficient but like I said, that's actually kinda a plus for the US and Europe right now given the Great Recession.

What makes a trade collapse possible is if there are centers of production that have no value without the trade.  Think about some colonial era European colony with a valuable colony that produces spices or sugar cane or coffee.  The commodity is valuable in Europe so importing it makes the colonial power a lot of money.  Then one day a war breaks out that disrupts the import trade.  The valuable commodity sits in warehouses in the colony and rots.  The warehouses are full so the colony stops producing whatever it was exporting and has no other goods that it can produce.  So production is no longer possible.  It's not the decline in trade itself that is the problem, it's the decline in output that results.  This reduces the wealth in the same way that a major crop failure would.

A decline in Sino-American trade would not cause a decline in output like this.  Aggregate supply, the total world's output, would be unaffected, only redirected.  Both the US and China would be capable of producing as much as before it's just the US would need to buy more American and China buy more Chinese.  Without a reduction in aggregate supply a trade collapse would not lead to a collapse in economic activity and all the bad stuff that entails.

Sorry if this is a bit repetitive, it's been a while since I've read this stuff so I'm doing my best to be thorough so as to avoid mistakes.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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kaenneth

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5815 on: September 27, 2012, 11:47:05 pm »

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/09/27/bls_benchmark_revisions_government_finds_386_000_new_jobs_.html

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FearfulJesuit

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5817 on: September 28, 2012, 09:17:52 am »

 ???
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Zangi

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5818 on: September 28, 2012, 09:23:48 am »

???
Perhaps some context to this confusion?  What has confounded you good sir?


Also, pretty hilarious that Team Romney is already conceding defeat for the first debate.  In a way though, a preemptive narrative...  Which they expect Obama to react to, so that the whole debate won't just be Obama kickingcurbstomping Romney or something.
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Zrk2

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5819 on: September 28, 2012, 09:26:52 am »

I like the quote "Romney's campaign is so dead the Mormons just baptized it." It's hilarious and accurate.
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