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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 754153 times)

Owlbread

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5370 on: September 15, 2012, 01:44:23 pm »

Senators are elected every 6 years, Owlbread.

By the people or by the government? Or political parties?
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Frumple

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5371 on: September 15, 2012, 01:46:28 pm »

By the people in the state the senators represent.
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Descan

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5372 on: September 15, 2012, 01:57:34 pm »

Is there any part that is appointed? Congress, maybe? I know the supreme court is appointed.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5373 on: September 15, 2012, 02:01:16 pm »

Is there any part that is appointed? Congress, maybe? I know the supreme court is appointed.

Just the SC and the president's hangers-on: cabinet posts and various posts like ambassador and chief of the CIA. A lot of these appointed posts are used as sinecures for the president's supporters, especially the not-so-important-ambassadors to places like Croatia or Ecuador or whatever.
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Owlbread

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5374 on: September 15, 2012, 02:12:55 pm »

By the people in the state the senators represent.

So how is Congress appointed?
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palsch

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5375 on: September 15, 2012, 02:14:11 pm »

The Senate used to be appointed by the governments of the individual states. This was changed by the Seventeenth Amendment, ratified in 1913. There have been occasional calls to repeal this, which is kinda cute.
Is there any part that is appointed? Congress, maybe? I know the supreme court is appointed.

Congress = House + Senate

I must say though that I would rather be able to choose who represents my country in the role of prime minister or president through seperate elections rather than having the ruling party decide for me. I'm quite sympathetic to the American system in that respect. This system used to work back in the early 20th century when prime ministers basically led parliament and the government from behind the scenes rather than acting like a de-facto "head of state" or president. Back then, it was more about your skill as a political leader rather than your personality. Personality was still important, but more that you would be a competent leader. However, since people like Maggie Thatcher and Tony Blair we've had prime ministers that acted far too much like presidents or heads of state despite being unelected. That meant they had to concentrate more on appearing to the general public in a certain way and gaining votes for the party rather than leading the country itself. Perhaps the best way to do it is have the PM perform the same function that he has now - to lead the government - and have a president that would act as a proper head of state, meeting with other international leaders and such. Let him be the focus of the PR politics while the PM concentrates on the leadership.
In the UK our head of state is technically the crown. So we kinda have that separation. Just that if the current monarch ever exercises any authority they are going to lose that power very quickly, so it's arguably completely imbalanced and should be replaced with a presidential system like France's. Although that would cause it's own political and constitutional problems.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5376 on: September 15, 2012, 02:17:01 pm »

By the people in the state the senators represent.

So how is Congress appointed?


Via voting. Congress is two houses of government, the Senate and the House of Representatives. "Congress" doesn't get appointed.
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Owlbread

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5377 on: September 15, 2012, 02:18:59 pm »

The Senate used to be appointed by the governments of the individual states. This was changed by the Seventeenth Amendment, ratified in 1913. There have been occasional calls to repeal this, which is kinda cute.


So the senate was once the house that would represent the states? Why was it removed, thereby reducing the autonomy of the states?
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5378 on: September 15, 2012, 02:31:36 pm »

The Senate used to be appointed by the governments of the individual states. This was changed by the Seventeenth Amendment, ratified in 1913. There have been occasional calls to repeal this, which is kinda cute.


So the senate was once the house that would represent the states? Why was it removed, thereby reducing the autonomy of the states?

Because no one was in favour of "state's rights" in 1913. The progressives were naturally in favour of a stronger federal government and were in power at the time, and the southern conservatives were too because Woodrow Wilson was a gigantic segregationist. It's one of those things instituted in a bygone era that people keep around largely because it's been there so long.
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kaijyuu

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5379 on: September 15, 2012, 02:35:34 pm »

Why was it removed, thereby reducing the autonomy of the states?
Methinks you answered your own question.
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palsch

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5380 on: September 15, 2012, 02:52:45 pm »

So the senate was once the house that would represent the states? Why was it removed, thereby reducing the autonomy of the states?
Answered in the link you quoted;
Quote from: Wikipedia
According to Jay Bybee, those in favor of popular elections for senators felt that there were primarily two issues caused by the original provisions: legislative corruption and electoral deadlocks. In terms of corruption, the general feeling was that senatorial elections were "bought and sold", changing hands for favors and sums of money rather than because of the competence of the candidate. Between 1857 and 1900, the Senate investigated three elections over corruption. In 1900, for example, William A. Clark had his election voided after the Senate concluded that he had bought eight of his fifteen votes in the Montana legislature. However, Bybee and Todd Zywicki believe this concern was largely unfounded; there was a "dearth of hard information" on the subject, and in over a century of elections, only 10 were contested with allegations of impropriety.

Electoral deadlocks were another issue. Because state legislatures were charged with deciding who to appoint as senators, the system relied on them being able to agree. Some states could not, and thus delayed sending representatives to Congress; in a few cases, the system broke down to the point where states completely lacked representation. Between 1891 and 1905, 46 elections were deadlocked, in 20 different states; in one extreme example, a Senate seat for Delaware went unfilled from 1899 until 1903. The business of holding elections also caused great disruption in the state legislatures, with a full third of the Oregon legislature choosing not to swear the oath of office in 1897 due to a dispute over an open Senate seat. The result was that the legislature was unable to convene for 53 days, and was forced to disband and call a new election.
If you want my modern take, there are two obvious problems with appointed Senators that make them a bad idea today. The first is the concept of having the "better men" of society in an upper house simply doesn't work. It's an attractive idea, but in reality having any politics behind such appointments corrupts both the appointers and appointees, while the institutional inertia required for such a system to work means that the "better men" are always behind the times. And that's ignoring the question of what qualifies someone as "better" (or good enough anyway).

The second is that state level elections will simply become a proxy for Senate elections, in the same manner that Presidential elections are proxies for the Supreme Court. There are whole blocks of voters who base their presidential vote on whether they will appoint liberal or conservative judges. Given that state level elections usually matter less to people than Senate elections anyway, putting such a significant power in the hands of state legislatures will swamp any local politics, utterly destroying the last holdouts of non-polarised, two party contests.

EDIT: I'd also argue that the representation of the states are still the same as when they were appointed by state legislatures. You still have equal representation despite population (two senators per state). You still have staggered six year terms allowing for institutional inertia. You still have all the power and authority of original Senate design. You still have them reflecting the general population of the state at large, just filtered through direct election rather than the elected state legislature.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 02:58:25 pm by palsch »
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lordcooper

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5381 on: September 15, 2012, 03:10:28 pm »

Quote from: Santorum
We will never have the elite, smart people on our side.

I concur.
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Owlbread

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5382 on: September 15, 2012, 03:30:42 pm »

Why was it removed, thereby reducing the autonomy of the states?
Methinks you answered your own question.

Where I come from, autonomy is seen as a good thing. It's pretty much driven our politics for the last decade or so.
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Darvi

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5383 on: September 15, 2012, 03:31:29 pm »

So now we know where the Paulites come from.
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Owlbread

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #5384 on: September 15, 2012, 03:32:46 pm »

So now we know where the Paulites come from.

It's just interesting that you would view autonomy in that way. It doesn't always mean "the choice to segregate people" or "the choice to force women to keep the children of rapists", over here it means controlling your own money, your own affairs etc. People like that shit. Local government and all that.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 03:35:05 pm by Owlbread »
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