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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 767730 times)

RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #525 on: January 06, 2012, 10:55:33 am »

They were willing to what?

... why do they keep on with their acts and don't already bring out their supervillain doomsday devices already?

They have. It was called "the US debt default". They basically threatened to let the government default (and all the *world* financial ripple effects that would have caused) unless they got a budget pared down to the bone. And Obama, unable to send superheroes to stop them, basically caved. I'm not faulting him that harshly because I don't know what I'd have done in that situation either, but the problem is that by acceding to their demands, he validated that kind of shit as a tactic.

Now every time they want to push through some crazy-ass measure that they know won't pass the Senate, they just hold a gun to the country's head by refusing to compromise on critical budgetary measures -- the kind of day-to-day shit that keeps things running.

(Incidentally, that's why I would make a terrible President. I'd have filled the Capitol gallery with Special Forces snipers and informed both them and the Congress that these particular snipers will be part of the necessary layoffs if Congress refuses to pass the budget/debt ceiling/whatever.)
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Darvi

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #526 on: January 06, 2012, 10:57:11 am »

Unfortunately my political vocab is non-existent and I have no idea what terms like "default" and stuff mean.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #527 on: January 06, 2012, 11:10:09 am »

Unfortunately my political vocab is non-existent and I have no idea what terms like "default" and stuff mean.
It would have meant the US government would officially be saying "Sorry guys, we're broke and can't pay you."

Oh, we'd still have lots of money, just not enough to actually pay everyone we legally owe money to, when we legally owe it to them.

More pressing would be that the credit rating of the US would plummet, interest rates would skyrocket, and it would get that much harder for companies to get credit at a time when credit is already tight because of the recent financial disasters. Other countries and banks which have large chunks of US debt would also then be suspect.

Of course, Michele Bachmann was all good and ready to push that red button, because she didn't "believe" anything would actually happen. After all, the only people saying that are a bunch (and I mean a BUNCH) of egghead economists, fiscal policy experts and bankers. God didn't whisper it into her ear, so it can't be true.
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scriver

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #528 on: January 06, 2012, 11:19:07 am »

One: You said traditional, not classical.

I guess it comes down to different ideas on how the word "traditional" is used.

Quote
Three: Its perfectly possible for conservatism to advocate socialism. Why wouldn't you think that was possible? Socialism has little to do with the liberalism/conservatism divide. In fact, by your claim as the previous quote being the traditional liberal definition, well.. socialism certainly isn't liberal!

It's possible for conservatives, like liberals, to advocate socialistic ideas. It is not possible for either to be socialist, there is a fundamental difference in values.

And yes, socialism certainly isn't liberal. There is a reason politic philosophy is often simplified into a socialism - liberalism - conservatism spectrum.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #529 on: January 06, 2012, 11:23:46 am »

Is there actually a definition of Traditional other than "historically true within the confines of the culture being discussed" or  "based on a culturally transmitted system or idea that has been passed on from one generation to another"?

:::goes to look it up:::

I'm not finding one, so I'm not really sure what definition you'd be operating under in this case. Clarification?
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scriver

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #530 on: January 06, 2012, 11:30:08 am »

I use/read it as "calling back to how it used to be" be based on the use of it's Swedish relative "traditionellt".
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Bauglir

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #531 on: January 06, 2012, 11:45:34 am »

Of course, depending on your context, liberalism is pretty damn vague, too. This is why neoconservative ideas in the US, like spreading democracy by liberating dicatorships (you'll have to give me a minute here to finish laughing), are suspiciously liberal, in that they require the government to take significant action to achieve a vaguely defined, but strongly believed-in, good. Now, I doubt many of the politicians that support such ideas do so because they share them, but that's because I'm a cynic when it comes to political motivations.

Perhaps we need a fixed set of definitions that we can all refer to? Or is that the sort of pointless pedantry that demonstrates the thread has already wandered into irreversible bickering?
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #532 on: January 06, 2012, 12:43:38 pm »

I don't think it's bickering, so much as one of the recurrent problems in political science: it's full of technical jargon which is often at odds with the "popular" use of the same words.

Classical liberalism espoused democracy, the power of laissez-faire capitalism, and called for destratification of society. Of course, it frequently did so while only looking at white males with enough wealth to have any kind of interest in politics to begin with. This was contrasted with the conservatism of the period (18th/19th centuries), which argued for the retention of monarchy and the landed gentry as the arbiters of power in society.

The problem, according to Marx and others, was that while the liberal democracy was more free than serfdom, it was still inherently an unfree system because you merely traded dominance of a ruling class based on heredity to a ruling class based on wealth, rather the sort of egalitarian democracy that it hoped and claimed to be. I think you don't have to look around too hard today to admit that Marx had a pretty good argument. He also argued that capitalist democracy was a necessary stage in the progression of a society, and that socialism would arise once liberal democracy had burned itself out and created such a class inequity that it was not all that different from the monarchies it overthrew. This would lead to the "rise of the workers' proletariat", etc. (Lenin's problem was that he wanted to accelerate the timeline and skip the liberal democracy stage altogether.)

Conservatism in the strictly political science sense, isn't really tied to democracy or capitalism as core values. What we have in the US are two "classic" liberal parties, one which is socially conservative, and one which is socially moderate-to-liberal (by US standards). The former prefers "classical economics", which is to say supply-side economics; while the latter prefers Keynesian economics, particular during economic downturns. But as time marches on, it's difficult to say what a truly "conservative" party in the US would be. We never had dominance by a landed gentry or the Church the way that many European countries had, so there's no core segment there to resist change. Instead, we have people who have reconstructed an America-That-Never-Was: where brave, white Christian (typically Protestant) males conquered a savage wilderness and fought off all their enemies and made prosperous, moral livelihoods for themselves. And that's what they want to "return" to.

But because the actual history of the US (and unfortunately, the version I mock above is more or less the version that gets taught to most of our children) is considerably more colorful, nuanced and amoral/immoral....there's nowhere to return to. And if you dare to point that out (or to suggest that perhaps the best way for a country is to look forwards, rather than trying to regress 250 years), you're a goddamn pinko commie socialist f*g who hates America.

So yeah. That's why politics in this country can be so effed-up that we have a majority of Republican candidates denying evolution and global warming and thumping their Bible all the way to the ballot box. Because they think (and more importantly, a sizable portion of their constituents think) that that's what ol' George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would have wanted.

Ben Franklin, meanwhile, would have bitchslapped these people into next Tuesday. (Although he might have had a soft spot for Gingrich and Cain...Franklin liked the ladies too.)
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #533 on: January 06, 2012, 01:23:46 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wow, Bachmann did better than I expected.

Miggy, the problem is that most of the Republican candidates are religious nutheads.
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Dutchling

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #534 on: January 06, 2012, 01:39:08 pm »

The only article so far about the upcoming American elections in the newspaper I read (NRC) is about how stupid Bachmann is.
Guess they are right.
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olemars

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #535 on: January 06, 2012, 02:45:27 pm »

Newsies around here are saying that according to Santorum, the new axis of evil is Iran, Egypt and Poland. Can't seem to find any mention of this elsewhere though.

Huh. Yeah, I'm not finding any mention of that in the US media. And I'd think a gaffe (even a relatively minor one like criticizing the wrong East European country) would be jumped all over on this side of the pond.

Yeah, the story's been retracted now, a journo messed up his summary of the speech or something. What Santorum said about Poland was that Obama should have been more heavy-handed with them when Poland refused the ABM missile shield.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #536 on: January 06, 2012, 02:48:13 pm »

So you may have heard that John McCain has thrown his support behind Romney and went to SC to stump for him.

It's going swimmingly.  :P

To sum up, he accidentally praised President Obama and said Romney would lead from the front, not "from behind, like Ronald Reagan".

Two cardinal sins in one day is pretty impressive, even if they were accidents. I'm half-expecting the Romney camp to say that McCain was mistaken and he's actually throwing his support behind Santorum.
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nenjin

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #537 on: January 06, 2012, 03:08:39 pm »

Senility can be a big political liability :P
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #538 on: January 06, 2012, 03:36:23 pm »

I could say many things about that sod. Reagan is a terrible role model for anyone planning to administrate anything, let alone the United States.

I'm very confused as to how he 'accidentally' said Obama will turn the country around. Maybe his circuits are wearing? Someone get another GOPbot in there.

Also: He's old, not senile. Mccain is a pretty sharp man, he just sits under the GOP's thumb. Being in the actual military+holding political office for a near quarter century isn't likely to lead to senility.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:44:43 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #539 on: January 06, 2012, 03:39:38 pm »

My pet theory (which may or may not be completely unsupported) is that McCain is a plant or turncoat. He knows that the Republican candidates, or most of them, are crazy and should not be in charge of the country. He "accidentally" supports Obama while making things difficult for the candidate he's supposed to be praising.
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