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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 764979 times)

Truean

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4380 on: August 06, 2012, 11:24:42 am »

It actually takes a fair bit of money and research to "scale down" for asymmetric warfare. That transition has been in the works for at least 15 years now. Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, we knew that the majority of our future combats would involve enemies who absolutely could not stand before us. But they could disperse and wage guerilla warfare and our Cold War-era force was ill-equipped for that. It's like trying to fend off a swarm of gnats with a bazooka. So we've spent decades and billions of dollars figuring out how to reconfigure our forces for less bazookas and more flyswatters.


Of course, one fear now is that if there's ever a serious engagement with China, we're going to wish we still had that "big war" Army instead.

The other problem is that technology is a force multiplier. A HUGE one. But we've become so dependant on that force multiplier to tilt the odds our way that we're neglecting a lot of basics. Take away that multiplier and our army might not be able to stand up so well against competitors. Most of Chinese defense policy vis-a-vis the United States hinges on denying us our fancy toys if shit ever goes hot. Take away GPS, take away remote drones, take away EWACS....the US would paralyzed in combat. There's a growing countercurrent within the Armed Forces that wants us to become less reliant on our technology because it's becoming an Achilles' heel.

The basics count for a lot and they're increasingly less taught. The problem with tech aim is that you become reliant upon it and you can't manually aim, which when shit goes wrong, you have to. Same thing with detonators. It's pull pin and throw for a reason.... [shrugs]
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4381 on: August 06, 2012, 11:34:03 am »

Science isn't about significantly increasing the quality of life for people, it is about learning objective things concerning our reality. Improving our quality of life is a side effect of knowing what we're doing instead of flailing about blindly.

You want a practical application? Fine. Knowing the properties of moon rocks allows us to increase our knowledge of Earth's geological history (being that the moon consists of matter ejected from Earth long in the past) and allows us to better plan future moon missions. This will make it easier for us to build an outpost or colony on the moon. Before you ask why we should ever do that, it is so we may make our species more able to avoid extinction and to harvest resources, such as the HE3 on the Lunar poles. Before you ask what that is for, nuclear fusion.

E is not an element, and hydrogen isn't exactly something required from the moon (Methinks you meant He3)  ;)

Besides that, you want the government to be prioritizing potentially worthless discoveries over, say, improving the quality of life of its citizens?

Why not just make it a non profit organization separate from the government? That not only reduces waste that comes with being a government program (for example, hiring a standing army of aerospace engineers and bureaucrats when less would do), it also means that people actually interested would be funding it through donations. I'd probably donate to a kickstarter for NASA. Makes more sense then having the government run it, at any rate.

Perhaps you missed the memo, but space is the most deadly environment out there. Our method of reaching it is very dangerous. Shit will happen. The shit that happens will be expensive because this is a relatively new and high-tech field. The failures of the present, however, are nothing compared to the explosive madness of the early space programs of both the US and USSR, where almost as many rockets exploded on the launch pad as managed to get into space.

I'm not just talking about Columbia and so on, but times where excessive amounts of money were spent on forgotten projects, failed designs (even persisting long after being proven to not work), and unneeded overhead (again, that standing army of engineers and bureaucrats).


As we told you before, there is an entire magazine for NASA's innovations alone. Go read it if you want more specifics.

I read through some of the things invented by NASA (and it does, notably, include things that were invented by companies contracted by NASA as well) and thought there were some useful things, but not $750 billion worth of useful things. If NASA invented anything ground breaking like the DoD did, I guarantee you would be showing it off by this point.

And if we took the DoD's budget from 1962 to 2012 adjusted for inflation and added it together?

The DoD was protecting the US against the Red Menace, at least that's what they say. I already said I'm entirely in favour of cutting the DoD significantly, and doing that long before cutting from NASA, so I'm not seeing what your argument is here. They STILL produced far more of value than NASA ever did after letting their discoveries trickle into the commercial sector, and their discoveries are neither "science for its own sake" nor is most of their budget dedicated to R&D.
To think that they should die instead is just plain bloodthirsty.

I don't think that's quite what he meant. Obviously, the happiest world is one in which everyone is fed and alive. However, where do they get their food again?

It actually takes a fair bit of money and research to "scale down" for asymmetric warfare. That transition has been in the works for at least 15 years now. Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, we knew that the majority of our future combats would involve enemies who absolutely could not stand before us. But they could disperse and wage guerilla warfare and our Cold War-era force was ill-equipped for that. It's like trying to fend off a swarm of gnats with a bazooka. So we've spent decades and billions of dollars figuring out how to reconfigure our forces for less bazookas and more flyswatters.


Of course, one fear now is that if there's ever a serious engagement with China, we're going to wish we still had that "big war" Army instead.

The other problem is that technology is a force multiplier. A HUGE one. But we've become so dependant on that force multiplier to tilt the odds our way that we're neglecting a lot of basics. Take away that multiplier and our army might not be able to stand up so well against competitors. Most of Chinese defense policy vis-a-vis the United States hinges on denying us our fancy toys if shit ever goes hot. Take away GPS, take away remote drones, take away EWACS....the US would paralyzed in combat. There's a growing countercurrent within the Armed Forces that wants us to become less reliant on our technology because it's becoming an Achilles' heel.

The cheapest and most straightforward solution here would be for the US to avoid aggressive wars from the get go, of course.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4382 on: August 06, 2012, 11:41:44 am »

Really the only place where we rely completely on  electronics is in modern air superiority. Artillery manually calculated firing solutions still work just fine, even if you can't get 1 meter precision. Soldiers are still trained to operate independently without radio contact.

I do think that military spending should be wound down, but not immediately slashed. Cut to 50% of current spending slowly over the next 10 or 20 years should give enough time for institutional transition.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4383 on: August 06, 2012, 12:11:28 pm »

Look, I shouldn't talk about stuff that gets me mad. A lot of things make me mad.

And I know foreign aid accounts for surprisingly little, I just don't like the idea of feeding north Korean soldiers and funding african warlords by proxy.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4384 on: August 06, 2012, 12:53:59 pm »

How do you feel about Foreign Aid as an ideal? I.E. spending tax-payers money to feed impoverished people in third world countries, helping their infrastructure, getting them self-sustaining?

Not how it is currently, where a lot of it gets diverted and the stuff that does get where it's supposed to go does more harm than good.
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Willfor

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4385 on: August 06, 2012, 12:54:33 pm »

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« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:57:27 pm by Willfor »
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4386 on: August 06, 2012, 01:16:33 pm »

I'm not just talking about Columbia and so on, but times where excessive amounts of money were spent on forgotten projects, failed designs (even persisting long after being proven to not work), and unneeded overhead (again, that standing army of engineers and bureaucrats).

Wait, wait, wait....and you were saying they should be rolled into DoD to PREVENT this?? Are you familiar at all with the DoD's R&D system? it's called "throw a metric shit-ton of money at an idea and see if we get anything usable. Even if it's 20 years from now, and we don't need it anymore."


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The cheapest and most straightforward solution here would be for the US to avoid aggressive wars from the get go, of course.
Yeah well, there's this little problem called politicians and demagoguery. You know, the kind that swears oaths that we will never "abandon Taiwan".


Really the only place where we rely completely on  electronics is in modern air superiority. Artillery manually calculated firing solutions still work just fine, even if you can't get 1 meter precision. Soldiers are still trained to operate independently without radio contact.

I do think that military spending should be wound down, but not immediately slashed. Cut to 50% of current spending slowly over the next 10 or 20 years should give enough time for institutional transition.
Yeah, and what do we tend to rely on to win our fights? Air superiority. It's also pretty heavily reliant in the newer-generation warships. Though it's been mostly scuttled now, the DDG-1000 program will produce a destroyer with a crew complement of less than 150, compared to roughly 300 for an Arleigh Burke. The way you get small crews like that is with lots of assistive technology. Take away that computer assist, and you've got major problems.

I've seen China's scenarios for dealing with an American carrier group, and I've wargamed a few of my own. With the right timing and use of EMP/viruses/trojans/jammers, the results could be devastating. They don't have the naval strength to contest, but they certainly have the land-based airpower (and attack submarines) to do us a world of hurt in Chinese coastal waters if we're blind.

I think about the Battlestar Galactica reboot, and how the top Vipers and battlestars of the fleet were shredded when their computers were compromised. Makes me wonder if we should keep a couple of the old carriers and Iowa-class BBs in reserve, just in case.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4387 on: August 06, 2012, 01:39:36 pm »

How do you feel about Foreign Aid as an ideal? I.E. spending tax-payers money to feed impoverished people in third world countries, helping their infrastructure, getting them self-sustaining?

Not how it is currently, where a lot of it gets diverted and the stuff that does get where it's supposed to go does more harm than good.
I think the goodwill a few billion dollars would be well worth the investment. Although I'd prefer instead of feeding them we taught them how to feed themselves.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4388 on: August 06, 2012, 02:24:42 pm »

The Chinese are not cylons. the only way to blind a modern fleet is with a high altitude nuke setting off an EMP, and that will screw up chinese long range combat options at least as much as the US. There is no way that they could cripple more than a minute fraction of the electronic warfare capabilities with magical viruses.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4389 on: August 06, 2012, 02:29:17 pm »

How do you feel about Foreign Aid as an ideal? I.E. spending tax-payers money to feed impoverished people in third world countries, helping their infrastructure, getting them self-sustaining?

Not how it is currently, where a lot of it gets diverted and the stuff that does get where it's supposed to go does more harm than good.
I think the goodwill a few billion dollars would be well worth the investment. Although I'd prefer instead of feeding them we taught them how to feed themselves.
Ohhhh!

So like... Improving their infrastructure? Getting them self-sustaining?
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Frumple

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4390 on: August 06, 2012, 02:37:37 pm »

Hrm...? Yeah, hauling everyone up to first world level infrastructure and methodology is (very much) arguably about the best thing we could actually do, if helping our fellow man was our core goal in foreign aid (also arguable, on the political level). Most of the problems they're having would be mostly solved if they could sustain the same sort of stuff us first world bastards are using to keep ourselves on top.

Chances of that actually happening are goddamn jack zero, because there's absolutely zero chance in hell the dominate political entities are going to help other ones come closer to matching them, especially when that selfsame action would be removing part of the massive exploitation that makes the current first world possible. *disgruntled shrug*
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4391 on: August 06, 2012, 03:17:33 pm »

The Chinese are not cylons. the only way to blind a modern fleet is with a high altitude nuke setting off an EMP, and that will screw up chinese long range combat options at least as much as the US. There is no way that they could cripple more than a minute fraction of the electronic warfare capabilities with magical viruses.
And the Japanese could never launch a major strike 3000 miles from their naval bases.

Bottom line: I don't care about the mechanism, only the effect. Scrambling GPS (or taking out part of the constellation) could be devastating by itself. And wouldn't impact the Chinese that much because they're putting up their own system (Beidou) for use over mainland Asia. Or even worse, cracking the encryption algorithm and introducing deliberate random error into the signals. Drones become incredibly difficult to use, fighters have to be flown on manual and radar navigation, cruise missiles are completely unreliable, all sorts of things become a problem.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4392 on: August 06, 2012, 03:25:52 pm »

Wait, wait, wait....and you were saying they should be rolled into DoD to PREVENT this?? Are you familiar at all with the DoD's R&D system? it's called "throw a metric shit-ton of money at an idea and see if we get anything usable. Even if it's 20 years from now, and we don't need it anymore."

No, some functions of NASA which fall under the category of national defense (select parts of rocketry and aerospace, for example) would make sense under the DoD. The rest would be better off as a non-profit organization (the regular R&D side of things, most of the space program).

Yeah well, there's this little problem called politicians and demagoguery. You know, the kind that swears oaths that we will never "abandon Taiwan".

Dumb politicians are a given, but if the US government kept to itself and let other countries handle their own problems then its unlikely conflict with China would ever occur. If it did, then the US would be justified in defending itself and would be capable of fighting back with a far leaner and more capable force (as opposed to what it is presently, a bloated mass of special interests, wasted money and aircraft carriers).
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4393 on: August 06, 2012, 03:43:18 pm »

US vs China war won't be caused by the US, since we get a buttton of cheap labor from there.

I don't know anything about China's current foreign policy is. The worst case scenario would be a government changing revolution in china which would be perfectly justified under their work conditions. Unions are outlawed anyway with insane punishments for being part of one.

Okay the DoD does do some research but, it doesn't and will never in any world do as much research as an administration which is specifically based around the advancement of science.

Do you know how penicillin was invented? By studying bread mold. Think the DoD would have invested in that? How about the private sector? No way.

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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4394 on: August 06, 2012, 04:06:04 pm »

Okay the DoD does do some research but, it doesn't and will never in any world do as much research as an administration which is specifically based around the advancement of science.

Do you know how penicillin was invented? By studying bread mold. Think the DoD would have invested in that? How about the private sector? No way.

Penicillin was invented long before the government had much of anything to do with it, so by definition it was invented by the private sector
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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