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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 771071 times)

Glowcat

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10140 on: December 04, 2012, 10:08:46 pm »

What's the status on the fiscal cliff? Last I heard, Boehner and the White House have a deal they're putting the finishing touches on...and Boehner's lunatic colleagues won't vote for it.
That's news to me. Last I heard Obam put put a super Liberal plan and the Republicans responded with a plan that was a least a little concilitory.

You must listen to FOX then. The last plan I've seen was the one where Boehner offered Mitt Romney's plan, complete with vague and magical tax deductions which would produce $800 billion dollars of revenue sometime this year... maybe.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10141 on: December 04, 2012, 10:24:54 pm »

The republican plan wasn't conciliatory, it was supposed to be a plan that appeals to the media.  Boehner said that we should achieve the same revenue increases and discretionary spending cuts laid out in Simpson Bowles.  3 problems with that:

1) We've already done the discretionary spending cuts in Simpson-Bowles.  You'd need to identify new spending cuts if you want to cut spending again.  And since non-defense discretionary spending has fallen to 50 year lows that pretty much means... cutting defense, i.e. the thing republicans insist we don't cut.
2) Simpson Bowles was a democratic concession to try and get republicans talking when the GOP had just won an election. The GOP just lost an election... and now they expect the democrats to want to make the same concession?
3) Boehner doesn't lay out any actually areas where he would cut spending or raise revenues in anywhere remotely approaching the numbers he wants.  On taxes for instance he wants to raise hundreds of millions in taxes but it cant come from the middle class, cant come from a rate hike and cant cut into popular deductions like the charitable giving deduction.  Well that doesn't leave remotely close the level of revenues needed.  Simpson-Bowles called for increasing capital gains taxes and Pigot taxes and the like, stuff where the numbers checked out.

The media is hopelessly clueless about 1 and 3.  The media has caught onto 2 a little bit.  But this is pretty much what to expect when you have people who know nothing about the federal budget reporting on budget negotiations.  For government nerds this is the equivalent of when the media has a spike of interest in something sciencey related to NASA or the Higgs-Boson and reporters start saying all sorts of ignorant stuff about the subject.  The republican proposal is supposed to appeal to the kind of incompetent reporter who writes those articles.

Obama for his part has basically just offered the same budget he was proposing before the election.  He isn't offering the republicans anything until they actually bring something to the table as well.  He has also suggested a budget that is broadly speaking, good.  The cuts come from things like granting Medicare the authority to negotiate for prescription drug prices.  That is something that we should want anyway.  He also calls for spending increases (not as big as the cuts) in other areas, like infrastructure spending.  So the economic impact of the cuts should be blunted; even though total spending will decrease, it will go where it will get more bang for the buck.

So at this point neither side has really offered anything at all publicly.  But I don't think that's necessarily bad.  Real negotiations tend to keep talks quiet until the end.  People start letting loose the details of the talks when they think negotiations will fail and they want to start spinning it.

My guess is that we will probably see something closer to Obama's proposal then Boehners.  You can't pile concessions to the democrats onto Boehners budget because he doesn't have a budget.  And the democrats are digging in their heels over savaging the Obama budget all that badly.  So my guess is that either the clock running out forces Boehner to accept something like the Obama budget with face saving concessions to republicans that don't do much or the talks break down and we're all dead within two years from a collapse into anarchy followed by nuclear war.  Either way, Boehner has his work cut out for him keeping his leadership position.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 10:43:46 pm by mainiac »
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Grek

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10142 on: December 04, 2012, 11:21:27 pm »

or the talks break down and we're all dead within two years from a collapse into anarchy followed by nuclear war.  Either way, Boehner has his work cut out for him keeping his leadership position.
Where are people getting this notion that going over the "fiscal cliff" is going to wreck the country, doom America and cause mountains to crumble into the sea? All that is slated to happen is the Bush tax credits go away and Medicare receives some payout decreases. A few other things too, but those are the big ones. While a lack of compromise would suck for the economy, it wouldn't do all of these horrible things that people keep thinking it will. Life will continue on as normal after the fiscal cliff no matter what happens, just as it did before.
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Eagle_eye

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10143 on: December 04, 2012, 11:26:02 pm »

Yes. All of the things I listed have been done by some department or another of the US government since before 1818. Not necessarily their current department, but some department.

I think you're taking too narrow a view of 1, which is the big one. It seems to me that Marx wants the abolition of any sort of rent seeking, not just feudal demesnes.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10144 on: December 04, 2012, 11:53:32 pm »

or the talks break down and we're all dead within two years from a collapse into anarchy followed by nuclear war.  Either way, Boehner has his work cut out for him keeping his leadership position.
Where are people getting this notion that going over the "fiscal cliff" is going to wreck the country, doom America and cause mountains to crumble into the sea? All that is slated to happen is the Bush tax credits go away and Medicare receives some payout decreases. A few other things too, but those are the big ones. While a lack of compromise would suck for the economy, it wouldn't do all of these horrible things that people keep thinking it will. Life will continue on as normal after the fiscal cliff no matter what happens, just as it did before.

While I don't honestly think that it will lead to nuclear war the economic fallout will be pretty bad if no deal is reached.  It's expected to knock 3 points off US GDP in 2013 and cause unemployment to shoot back up to 9.1%.  This would come at the same time that Europe is already going into a double dip recession.  The past five years have seen political dysfunction and extremism on the rise in the peaceful democracies of the world.  The recovery has been too slow so people grow frustrated and you end up seeing things like Hungary's ruling party flout constitutional liberties while rigging the electoral process and ending the independent judiciary.  Well what happens if that slow recovery turns into a double dip recession?  Politics in the US and Europe will just get uglier and that will make us less able then before to deal with these problems.

I expect that somewhere along the line we will turn things around.  We have a long, long way to sink before things get ugly to the point of a breakdown of the relatively peaceful international order that we still enjoy.  But the farther we sink the more difficult these problems become.
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Grek

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10145 on: December 05, 2012, 12:18:28 am »

Well, yeah. It would be a massive and unneeded creation of human suffering. But it wouldn't blow up the world or start a war or see congress overthrown by bands of rioting looters or anything like that.
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Helgoland

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10146 on: December 05, 2012, 07:44:10 am »

There was a Simpsons episode set sometime in the future, and Lisa was about to marry an English guy:

Homer: "Well, we saved your ass in WWII!"
English guy: "Well, we saved your ass in WWIII!"

I promise all Americans here: If the shit hits the fan, we Europeans will discover that we actuallly kinda like you guys. We'll come over there and save your behinds.

(Or, more probable: Europe once again kicks itself in the nuts and comes crying to America :D )
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Owlbread

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10147 on: December 05, 2012, 11:44:12 am »

We British people are already America's bitches anyway, so it's not like it's any question we wouldn't help the Americans out if they got into trouble.
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darkrider2

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10148 on: December 05, 2012, 11:51:53 am »

Britain could always just say, "Oh great and mighty 'murica! You grace this world with your military strength which is far superior to that of any mere mortal nation. No one can stand against you, if we were assist your majesty in this war then it would only serve to diminish the honor you earn in completing it."

Then since we're all prideful jackoffs we'll be faced with the problem of either admitting we need help or... well the other options don't matter since admitting the need for help is A SIGN OF WEAKNESS I TELL YOU. NEVAR SURRENDAR.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10149 on: December 05, 2012, 12:00:23 pm »

NATO's members are bound to assist one another in war.
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Sheb

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10150 on: December 05, 2012, 12:25:54 pm »

Only defensive wars. And I don't think we have to intervene in civil wars. And frankly, you think we're not chicken enough to renegate on our agreements? :p
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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10152 on: December 05, 2012, 12:51:49 pm »

Only defensive wars. And I don't think we have to intervene in civil wars. And frankly, you think we're not chicken enough to renegate on our agreements? :p
If it's a rebel faction declaring war on the legitimate government, I'm fairly certain that counts.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10153 on: December 05, 2012, 04:37:08 pm »

The North Atlantic treaty is quite geographically limited, to the point where only a Soviet Russian invasion of West Germany the Western part of Eastern Europe would trigger it. It's broader in naval matters, but it wouldn't apply in the case of civil war or Mexico invading Canada.
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Helgoland

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10154 on: December 05, 2012, 04:44:45 pm »

Mexico invading Canada would be interesting - do you think the US would grant them right of passage?
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