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#1: Put the Alarm Siren in the Military Garrison, it fits and is one buildings less.

#1: Keep the Alarm Siren seperate, I want to have it near my other levers.

#2: I have traded with Gnomes, build Artificer and Weather Control Station.

#2: I have NOT traded with Gnomes, did not have the chance to build their buildings.

[Wilm0chimp]

Does anyone know if concubines children lose the [pet] tag when they grow up?

[Meph]

@KingofstarrySkies: Are you sure you didnt dream that? little elvish slave girls that are treated like dogs are definetly nothing I put into this mod. 

@Wilm0Chimp: Concubine children have no pet tag. They give birth to any normal dwarf caste.

Here is my idea for the guilds.


I will make a new workshop section called Guildhalls. Each guild will get one building, called the Guildhall. You can build a "Farmers Guildhall" for example. Dwarves can join guilds in these, as well as run special reactions that only affects guildmembers. In total I have 15 guilds. I would move all "blueprints" for related items into these guildhalls. That means you need a "Masons Guildhall" before you can build a stonecutter, rockforge and similar buildings. I havent decided on the price yet. I would like to use coins (buy a permit, buy a blueprint), but dont know about the balancing yet. You need metal for coins, so were do you get the coins for the smiths guild? I havent decided on that part yet.

Each guild will get a special pet, called "guildname sign". These will give small buffs to all guildmembers nearby. For example a "masons guild sign" will give all members of the masons guild a buff, possibly a small speed boost. But only in a close vicinity. This means you put up signs near your stone-using workshops, cluster your industry in one area, and hopefully will lead to a nice, distinct area in your fort. Empty "signs" can also be bought and transformed in the guildhall. Signs will also be spawned in the Guildhall, but cant be moved. This means your guildhall should stand in the center of your industry area.

Dwarves without a guild have very slow learning ability. Possibly extremely low, like 1% of vanilla df. Yes, I am serious. Upon joining a guild, the dwarf will transform into a "guild apprentice", getting 25% learnrates, and after being an apprentice for one year, will transform into a "guild journeyman", getting 75% learnrates. After another five years, will transform into a "guild master", getting 150% learnrates and some bonusses depending on guild type. The leveling system for the military, religious and magic guilds are most likely the same, just with different wording. Mages could learn a spell on each lvl-up, military automatically gains combat buffs...

Migrants would mostly arrive without a guild, but of course guildmembers will migrate as well.

The Merchants Guild - House Nish (Trade)
Governs the professions of organizer, record keeper, appraiser, pacifier, leader, negotiator, persuaders.
Higher social skills.
Lower physical attributes.
Higher mental attributes.


The Carpenters Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
Governs the professions of Bowyer, Carpenter, Woodcutter, Wood Crafter and Wood Worker
Get some bonus from wielding chopping axes.


The Masons Guild - House Lam (Stone)
Governs the professions of Building designer, Engraver, Mason, Stone Crafter, Miner and Stoneworker
Get some bonus from wielding picks.


The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
Governs the professions of Ambusher, Animal Caretaker, Animal Trainer, Animal Dissecter, Trapper, Beekeeper and Ranger.
Higher recuperation, at peace with wildlife.


The Smiths Guild  - House Zuntir (Anvil)
Governs the professions of Furnace Operating, Armorsmith, Metal Crafter, Blacksmith, Weapon Smith, Metal Smith and Wood Burner.
Small fire resistance, higher strength.


The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
Governs the professions of Glass Maker, Gem Cutter, Gem Setter and Jeweler.


The Crafters Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
Governs the professions of Glazer, Potter, Bone Carver, Clothier, Tanner, Leather Worker, Spinner, Weaver and Craftdwarf.


The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)
Governs the professions of Fish Cleaner, Fish Dissector, Fisherdwarf and Fishery Worker.


The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
Governs the professions of Brewer, Butcher, Cheese Maker, Cook, Dyer, Grower, Milker, Miller, Thresher, Presser and Farmer.


The Doctors Guild - Houses Thunen (Life)
Governs the professions of Diagnose, Set bones, suturing, wound dressing and surgeon.
Allows members to heal mod-included diseases.
Immunity to diseases.
Higher empathy.


The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
Governs the professions of Mechanic, Pump Operator, Siege Engineer, Siege Operator and Engineer.
Get NoFear for operating siege engines without fleeing.
Only guild that can set up landmines and turrets.


The Apostles of Armok Chapter - House Rath (Temple)
Governs the profession of Strand Extractor. (which is used for "apostle of armok" in the mod)
Allows special effects when using magical temple reactions.
Allows members to exorcise possessed dwarves.
Allows members to exorcise undead, putting them to rest.


The Alchmists Guild - House Anzish (Alchemy)
Governs the professions of Wax Worker, Alchemy,  Soaper, Lye Maker, Potash Maker and Herbalist.
Not affected by negative sideeffects of certain reactions; No self-poisoning in the toxicist, no explosions in the chemist


The Mages Guild - House Larul (Sorcerer)
Governs the professions of Druid (magic nature) and allows to learn spells.
All magic buildings would require a member of this guild to run the reaction.
Only mages guild members can become sorcerers.
Sorcerers get a new spell each time they raise a level.


The Legion of the Dead - House Rash (Death)
Governs military skills
Subgroups: Melee or ranged.  (Order Libash - Axe, Order Arush - Bow)
Axe would just be a symbol for melee, the Bow a symbol for ranged. I wont do a group for each weapon skill, that would be way too much micromanagent.
Higher strength, endurance, agility, toughness.
Lower empathy, social awareness.
Higher healing rate, likes fighting.

Questions and things that concern me:

Should guildhalls also be used to create items?

For example special armor/weapons for legionnaires, or special picks in the masons guild, special reactions for apostles in the guildhall? I would have to move reactions from magic building, temples and such into the guildhalls, but on the other hand it makes perfectly clear which reactions can only be done by guildmembers. Otherwise I would simply mark the reactions in the buildings with an (*) behind the reaction name. "Transform into magmamancer (*)" "Exorcise a possessed dwarf (*)"

How bad/good would the micromanagement be?

On the one hand its less castes then now. Instead of 25 only 15, plus the 6 mage types would be merged in. One the other hand it might break some features, for example transforming a possessed dwarf into a guildmember will automatically cure him (since he is a different creature then). I can circumvent this by making him not transform, which is either a dead giveaway or will confuse people, because they assume the transformation is bugged. On the other hand you can finally control which dwarf is member of which caste, because you can assign dwarves to guilds yourself.

Should this change be optional?

I know, I know. Everyone will shout Yes. But this is a major change and completely changes the game balance. Its also great lore-wise for succession forts. Its also, and this is important to me, extremely difficult to do as an optional setting. Its 15 buildings, a lot of reactions, castes, sub-castes, skill learn rates, natural skills, items/materials that use itemsyndrome to apply buffs, the guild-sign "pets", the overhaul of the magic system, I most likely have to change how both possessions and cults work... wow. Again, on the other hand, people that wont like the guild system will be put off by it, because it is ideed a massive change for players.

Are the guild sections ok like I did them?

I put wood burning into the smiths section for example, because they still operate a furnace while doing so. Or the lye, soap, herbalist and potash making in the alchemy section, even if they are farming skills officially.

Since this thread fills up quite fast, you can also post suggestions and ideas about the guilds here.

[KingofstarrySkies]

@KingofstarrySkies: Are you sure you didnt dream that? little elvish slave girls that are treated like dogs are definetly nothing I put into this mod. 

@Wilm0Chimp: Concubine children have no pet tag. They give birth to any normal dwarf caste.

Here is my idea for the guilds.


I will make a new workshop section called Guildhalls. Each guild will get one building, called the Guildhall. You can build a "Farmers Guildhall" for example. Dwarves can join guilds in these, as well as run special reactions that only affects guildmembers. In total I have 15 guilds. I would move all "blueprints" for related items into these guildhalls. That means you need a "Masons Guildhall" before you can build a stonecutter, rockforge and similar buildings. I havent decided on the price yet. I would like to use coins (buy a permit, buy a blueprint), but dont know about the balancing yet. You need metal for coins, so were do you get the coins for the smiths guild? I havent decided on that part yet.

Each guild will get a special pet, called "guildname sign". These will give small buffs to all guildmembers nearby. For example a "masons guild sign" will give all members of the masons guild a buff, possibly a small speed boost. But only in a close vicinity. This means you put up signs near your stone-using workshops, cluster your industry in one area, and hopefully will lead to a nice, distinct area in your fort. Empty "signs" can also be bought and transformed in the guildhall. Signs will also be spawned in the Guildhall, but cant be moved. This means your guildhall should stand in the center of your industry area.

Dwarves without a guild have very slow learning ability. Possibly extremely low, like 1% of vanilla df. Yes, I am serious. Upon joining a guild, the dwarf will transform into a "guild apprentice", getting 25% learnrates, and after being an apprentice for one year, will transform into a "guild journeyman", getting 75% learnrates. After another five years, will transform into a "guild master", getting 150% learnrates and some bonusses depending on guild type. The leveling system for the military, religious and magic guilds are most likely the same, just with different wording. Mages could learn a spell on each lvl-up, military automatically gains combat buffs...

Migrants would mostly arrive without a guild, but of course guildmembers will migrate as well.

The Merchants Guild - House Nish (Trade)
Governs the professions of organizer, record keeper, appraiser, pacifier, leader, negotiator, persuaders.
Higher social skills.
Lower physical attributes.
Higher mental attributes.


The Carpenters Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
Governs the professions of Bowyer, Carpenter, Woodcutter, Wood Crafter and Wood Worker
Get some bonus from wielding chopping axes.


The Masons Guild - House Lam (Stone)
Governs the professions of Building designer, Engraver, Mason, Stone Crafter, Miner and Stoneworker
Get some bonus from wielding picks.


The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
Governs the professions of Ambusher, Animal Caretaker, Animal Trainer, Animal Dissecter, Trapper, Beekeeper and Ranger.
Higher recuperation, at peace with wildlife.


The Smiths Guild  - House Zuntir (Anvil)
Governs the professions of Furnace Operating, Armorsmith, Metal Crafter, Blacksmith, Weapon Smith, Metal Smith and Wood Burner.
Small fire resistance, higher strength.


The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
Governs the professions of Glass Maker, Gem Cutter, Gem Setter and Jeweler.


The Crafters Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
Governs the professions of Glazer, Potter, Bone Carver, Clothier, Tanner, Leather Worker, Spinner, Weaver and Craftdwarf.


The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)
Governs the professions of Fish Cleaner, Fish Dissector, Fisherdwarf and Fishery Worker.


The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
Governs the professions of Brewer, Butcher, Cheese Maker, Cook, Dyer, Grower, Milker, Miller, Thresher, Presser and Farmer.


The Doctors Guild - Houses Thunen (Life)
Governs the professions of Diagnose, Set bones, suturing, wound dressing and surgeon.
Allows members to heal mod-included diseases.
Immunity to diseases.
Higher empathy.


The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
Governs the professions of Mechanic, Pump Operator, Siege Engineer, Siege Operator and Engineer.
Get NoFear for operating siege engines without fleeing.
Only guild that can set up landmines and turrets.


The Apostles of Armok Chapter - House Rath (Temple)
Governs the profession of Strand Extractor. (which is used for "apostle of armok" in the mod)
Allows special effects when using magical temple reactions.
Allows members to exorcise possessed dwarves.
Allows members to exorcise undead, putting them to rest.


The Alchmists Guild - House Anzish (Alchemy)
Governs the professions of Wax Worker, Alchemy,  Soaper, Lye Maker, Potash Maker and Herbalist.
Not affected by negative sideeffects of certain reactions; No self-poisoning in the toxicist, no explosions in the chemist


The Mages Guild - House Larul (Sorcerer)
Governs the professions of Druid (magic nature) and allows to learn spells.
All magic buildings would require a member of this guild to run the reaction.
Only mages guild members can become sorcerers.
Sorcerers get a new spell each time they raise a level.


The Legion of the Dead - House Rash (Death)
Governs military skills
Subgroups: Melee or ranged.  (Order Libash - Axe, Order Arush - Bow)
Axe would just be a symbol for melee, the Bow a symbol for ranged. I wont do a group for each weapon skill, that would be way too much micromanagent.
Higher strength, endurance, agility, toughness.
Lower empathy, social awareness.
Higher healing rate, likes fighting.

Questions and things that concern me:

Should guildhalls also be used to create items?

For example special armor/weapons for legionnaires, or special picks in the masons guild, special reactions for apostles in the guildhall? I would have to move reactions from magic building, temples and such into the guildhalls, but on the other hand it makes perfectly clear which reactions can only be done by guildmembers. Otherwise I would simply mark the reactions in the buildings with an (*) behind the reaction name. "Transform into magmamancer (*)" "Exorcise a possessed dwarf (*)"

How bad/good would the micromanagement be?

On the one hand its less castes then now. Instead of 25 only 15, plus the 6 mage types would be merged in. One the other hand it might break some features, for example transforming a possessed dwarf into a guildmember will automatically cure him (since he is a different creature then). I can circumvent this by making him not transform, which is either a dead giveaway or will confuse people, because they assume the transformation is bugged. On the other hand you can finally control which dwarf is member of which caste, because you can assign dwarves to guilds yourself.

Should this change be optional?

I know, I know. Everyone will shout Yes. But this is a major change and completely changes the game balance. Its also great lore-wise for succession forts. Its also, and this is important to me, extremely difficult to do as an optional setting. Its 15 buildings, a lot of reactions, castes, sub-castes, skill learn rates, natural skills, items/materials that use itemsyndrome to apply buffs, the guild-sign "pets", the overhaul of the magic system, I most likely have to change how both possessions and cults work... wow. Again, on the other hand, people that wont like the guild system will be put off by it, because it is ideed a massive change for players.

Are the guild sections ok like I did them?

I put wood burning into the smiths section for example, because they still operate a furnace while doing so. Or the lye, soap, herbalist and potash making in the alchemy section, even if they are farming skills officially.

Since this thread fills up quite fast, you can also post suggestions and ideas about the guilds here.

Hmmm.
maybe I did.
Fuck.
also, quick question.
What inspired you to make this mod?

[Meph]

Low cpu power of my netbook.

[Panopticon]

Wow, this looks really awesome, it is a huge overhaul of the normal tech system though, might turn some folks off. I would use the hell out of it though.

[Wilm0chimp]

Meph I just checked, the children of concubines don't show up in the pets list so I guess they are full, normal civs - but they still have [tame] at the end of their name.

Picture here: http://i.imgur.com/BBKwVLI.png

[Meph]

Well, it bothered me that an unlearned dwarf can just start making mechanisms or build statues or forge a weapon, just like that. This will of course still be possible, but with 1% learnrate people hopefully dont rely on their non-guild dwarves. It also helps balancing in what order people build workshops. First make a engineers guild, then build the trap engineer and the machine factory. First build a "Apostle of Armok Chapterhouse" then start building the temples, shrines or altars.

@wilm0chimp: They are still not pets, they will do work.

[Wrex]

Honestly? I really don't like the idea. It's such a vast departure from everything that has came before that it feels silly. Especially if vanilla dwarves can't learn, yet you need coins to produce a guildhall, this creates a rather jarring paradigm that simply dosen't feel in sync with what the mod has done in the past. It shoehorns you into a given playstyle, besides.

[Meph]

I will not use coins for something that is needed to produce coins. Most likely no coins at all.

But look at the poll, see which option is clearly leading. Guilds and Embassies.

Vanilla dwarves cant learn, but they can still do labor. So your average migrant is still the same, but cant get better at what he does. Many labors are not even skill dependant, like cleaning, hauling, feeding/bringing water, butcher, animal trapping, caretaking, dissecting... and more then half of the skills have no effect but speed. Only crafting-related skills that make items with a quality modifier are that important.

[Putnam]

Wrote a new script! Ever felt like... dwarven explosives?

[Meph]

Like my dynamite bolts and ballista ammo?

[Putnam]

Yes, but with DRAGONFIRE!!!

[Meph]

But... they already use dragonfire. Like, word for word.

[Stargazer]

I rather like the idea for Guild Halls, but do have a few worries.

Does this mean that your dwarfs would be horribly inefficient when you first start your fort? Would you still be able to build a carpenter or mason's workshops at the beginning? Guild Halls seem like they should be something that comes after you've got all the basics down already, and not one of the first buildings you need to create.

For the most part, any migrants that wander into my fort with no/crappy skills become hauling peasants anyway, so the slow learning rate doesn't bother me. But how would this effect the library system that's already in game?

[Putnam]

But... they already use dragonfire. Like, word for word.

But do they literally use the dragonfire material emission flow where the projectile hits?