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Author Topic: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?  (Read 17386 times)

ed boy

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #120 on: December 28, 2011, 08:16:19 pm »

Things cannot possibly as bad as the content industry likes to pretend; check out the CEO at Universal this year, who gave himself a raise of $50 million. That's basically the wages of my entire town for a year, he gets as a raise. Fuck these people.
Creative industries suuch as movies are not being affected uniformly. Movies, games, etc will still be produced, but the industry will lean heavily towards less risky, safer options. For example. compare the highest grossing films of 2011. Of the top ten, eight are the continuation of some previously popular series. Compared to ten years ago, when only two of the top ten were sequels (although three of those did go on to spawn highly profitable series). If we compare it to twenty years ago, only one of the top ten was a sequel. The creative industries are suffering, though not in terms of profit.

Also, concerning whether or not piracy is theft - it is not. Piracy is piracy. You can liken it to theft, certainly, but in doing so you do not get a perfect match, and discrepancies arise. In my opinion, a far more accurate comparison would be to compare it to trespassing. Instead of saying that piracy is like stealing from a shop, it is far better to say that piracy is like sneaking into a movie theater without paying.
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Luke_Prowler

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2011, 08:19:38 pm »

@Skyrimmer: And I agree with that, "sales lost" it not an argument that can stand on it's own legs.

@Fenrir: The crux of my argument is that it's wrong morally. Economicly it doesn't really matter if you really weren't planning on buying it (and not just saying that to weasel out of guilt) so long as you're not profiting from bootlegging it

Edit: And honestly, I too would eat all the food at a nazi fundraiser. And clog the toilets.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 10:54:49 pm by Luke_Prowler »
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Frumple

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #122 on: December 28, 2011, 08:34:54 pm »

Kant? Categorial imperative?  o_O I'm confused.
The 'think about whether everyone does it' line is basically the categorical imperative (Act only if the action can be writ as universal law; i.e. only if everyone else does it, logical contradiction doesn't ensue. Thus lying is in-all-cases immoral, because if everyone lied communication would be impossible, or something along those lines.) put in plainer language. The first line was you saying the imperative applies :P

Both you and Luke was harping it, actually, now that I read a little more carefully.

It's actually not terribly surprising if you've never heard of the guy; for all that his influence is absolutely gigantic in a lot of western culture, most folks don't realize it until they've actually learned a bit about 'im, who he influenced, and the practical results of that. He's pretty huge in western moral theory, so Kantian ethics has probably seeped into most of the western world to one degree or another. Plenty of people run into the guy for the first time not realizing they've already internalized his system to some degree.

Fie Kant, fie I say! I really should go look up what fie actually means...
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SalmonGod

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2011, 12:37:49 am »

The problem with this whole issue is that we're defining morality according to compatibility with the operations of a system, and that system has recently become incompatible with reality.  Thus, the entire debate is founded in a flaw, and we really need to direct our attentions to the more underlying issues.

Capitalism is a guiding principle for the allocation of resources to the people who will do the most good with them.  This principle is founded in the assumption that those resources are limited.  As relates to information, this has become almost completely not the case.  So now we're stuck with a situation where our way of living is entrenched in a system that is limiting potential good for all of society, and those limitations are becoming increasingly obvious.  Yet to not enforce those limitations punishes the source of that potential good (the creators), who still have to live within a system that only allocates resources necessary for survival according to the scarcity of what they provide to others.

In other words, the system is completely and utterly broken.  It is incompatible with the potentials of modern technology.  We either restrict humanity's potential by forcing artificial scarcity of information or we remodel our way of life.  This, at least, is a very clear-cut choice.

This becomes especially obvious when we shift our focus to other areas of intellectual property law besides the strictly cultural.  One very strong example is in medicine.  Millions of people die because pharmaceutical companies develop medicines and retain the exclusive right to produce and distribute them according to intellectual property law.  If not for IP law, generic brands would be able to sell those drugs for much, much cheaper to people who desperately need them as a matter of life and death.  Theoretically, that would cut into the profits of the company that originally created those products, affecting their ability to develop more medicines.  So there is some grey area there, but just how much one thing justifies another is very highly debatable.  There are very similar things going on in food & agriculture, where there are debates raging over how IP laws should apply to genetic code, and it's an issue where large numbers of lives are at stake.

Let's apply these same issues to software.  Can you even imagine the renaissance that could be ushered in by making all software freely available to everyone?  This is stuff that costs nothing but electricity to reproduce and distribute, and every person with access gains an increased ability to contribute to society in return. 

Information is really unique, because its value is proportional to the number of people who have access to it.  Other things decrease in value as they become abundant.  Information increases in value.  This applies to every kind of information.

In the case non-cultural information (software, inventions, etc), the more widespread license to this information is, the more people can benefit from, add to, diversify, correct, and be inspired by it.  This is only a good thing.

The inherent value of culture is in shared human experience.  The more it is shared, the more valuable it is.  Even the creator of a cultural artifact (book/painting/song/dance/whatever... I'll call them cultural artifacts) gets to enjoy the process of sharing their thoughts with the world.  This is why people make such a big deal out of getting credit for their work, even in the absence of any material compensation.  There is a thrill in being recognized for creating something; for having people know that the world was enriched through exposure to some piece of your mind.  Audiences grow as human beings through exposure to new ideas and perspectives, or simply get satisfaction from knowing that someone is out there who understands them when they find a deep relation with some work of art.  Beyond that, people bond with each other through shared culture.  What do people do to get to know one another?  They talk about stuff they like.  If they like the same things, they rejoice.  If they haven't been exposed to the same things, they make every effort to share and grow closer.  How much more do you enjoy a book or a movie if you know someone else who has also read/seen it and talk about it with you?  How much more do you enjoy a game according to the number of people you know who have also played it or can play it with you?

Sharing is the essence of culture and fundamental to human relations, and it's being stifled by increasingly restrictive IP laws.

There's also the often ignored fact that commodification of culture is a very new thing.  It began with books, but that was incredibly limited in scope.  Prior to the 20th century, most types of cultural artifact (paintings and printed text being the only exceptions I can think of) were organic, constantly evolving, memetic, very social in nature, and while attribution might be recognized by scholars, they were not owned or controlled in any modern sense by any entity.  Stories were simply told, for various reasons, and changed a little with every generation and locality they spread to.  It was the same with music, dance, stage performance, etc.  Then we developed the ability to produce all these different types of media, and that process of production turned these things into commodities.  The ability to intentionally produce culture for a living expanded, and it began to involve all of these middle-men in the process who needed to be compensated. 

Now we've had another incredibly rapid change, where we still have this expanded media that has thoroughly saturated our way of life, but the justifications (due to scarcity) and processes of commodification which were developed over the last roughly 100 years have become almost completely obsolete.  The middle-men whose livelihoods have become based on it are fighting desperately to maintain their relevance.  The lines between professional and amateur creators have also become very blurred, and those actually trying to make a living as content creators are having to compete more and more with skilled hobbyists and aspirants.

Above all, we all have this feeling that there's something just plain wrong about denying people of an infinite resource, especially when its proliferation increases its value.  We want to share these wonderful tools and cultural experiences with one another, but we're trapped by the foundations of a society that punishes such generosity.  We're going to be so confined until we re-think the core principles by which we operate.

Some other thoughts a little more grounded in the way things are now:

Publisher contracts are often incredibly predatory.  Especially in the music industry, I don't feel bad at all about not buying albums, because I know that the actual artists responsible for making it see almost none of the money from sales anyway.  Major record labels are known to charge musicians for the process of making an album, and then offer only a dime or two to the musicians for the sale of that album.  Only the biggest stars make any money from them.  Most make money from live performances and merchandise, and putting out an album is seen as an advertising investment.  If I want to support a band I like, I will pirate the album and then buy some merchandise, see them live, or just donate some money directly to them.  Unless it's an indy album under a small or independent label.

Publishers stifle innovation because they don't like financial risk.

Current IP law leans towards giving publishers the ability to steal from creators.  If you make some character, story, song, etc while working for a company and then leave that company, chances are that company retains the exclusive rights to your creation.  Some contracts go incredibly dystopian.  My degree is in New Media and included a class in IP law, so I'm actually versed in this on a basic level.  We were warned about some companies trying to force contracts whereby anything you create while under contract belongs to the company.  If you're a writer and you go home and write a story on your own time, unrelated to your work with the company, and then try to publish that story, even after you've left the company, they can claim the rights to it.  Some even go so far as claiming the rights to your creations if they can prove that you had the idea for it while you were employed with them.  The notion is that while you were employed with them, you had an obligation to submit any and all of your creative fruits to them for their profit.

It may be argued that file sharing has cut into the profits of big-time artists, but at the same time, it has offered unprecedented opportunity to small-time artists.  It's made production tools and distribution channels both broadly accessible.  Indy and amateur content is booming.  The music industry is so much more colorful than it was 10 years ago.  I'm fucking loving it.  Metallica (fuck them forever for their treason) may have lost some money, but now The Faint can make it completely on their own.  It's wonderful beyond words, and by god I'll fight for it.

This is not something I can substantiate, but I've heard a few times that most of the war on file sharing is war by traditional media industries on amateur content.  It competes substantially with their former monopolies on the media, and they're responding by shutting down their distribution channels.

Oh yeah.  And a few have mentioned try-before-you-buy as a justification for piracy.  I was severely disappointed with Oblivion and Fallout 3.  I wasn't planning on even trying Skyrim.  Then everyone I knew started raving about it.  So I decided to give it a chance.  It's the fourth game I've ever pirated.  I now own a legitimate copy, as well as a couple co-workers who also weren't interested in it, until I passed them my pirated copy.  So there's my anecdotal confirmation of that little bit.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 12:40:56 am by SalmonGod »
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Frumple

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2011, 12:46:58 am »

Yeah... all I can really say to that is well bloody said. M'saving that for future consumption and possible sharing.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2011, 01:05:51 am »

If you found it worth sharing, then please do so :)

Also, I was going to include this quote from Thomas Jefferson...

Quote from: Thomas Jefferson
“If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.

Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.”
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Criptfeind

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2011, 01:09:20 am »

I can agree with a lot of that, but I feel I have one major grievance.
Information is really unique, because its value is proportional to the number of people who have access to it.  Other things decrease in value as they become abundant.  Information increases in value.  This applies to every kind of information.

What? How is this so? At all? In any way. Unless you mean access as the ability and willingness to pay for it (which of course would make it non unique thus I am fairly sure that is not what you mean) I seriously don't see how this is.

Can you give me a working example then extend that example to all information for me?

Perhaps very very specific information, such as with music as you were talking about. And maybe you could stretch it to include things like Wikipedia getting people to donate... But really I don't see how that is all or even most information.

Of course, that aside, I can agree with most of what you said, but perhaps not what you were saying it for. I mean. Ultimately, what is your point? Because the response to broken laws in a even more broken system is not "fuck it. Lets just pirate the shit out of everything."

Well. I suppose that could work... Sorta. If everyone who did not see it like you did was dead/powerless. Which is not going to happen.
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alway

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2011, 01:18:43 am »

It becomes more valuable to society as a whole.

To the individual creating it, it may or may not be more valuable. Though as the government study done by the Swiss government showed, those who pirate content do not spend less money on similar content than those who do not pirate content. If those who pirate aren't actually going to spend any more money on content, as is actually shown in the study to be the case, there is really no point in carrying that debate further so far as electronic media goes. Piracy makes more content available to more people without disrupting the commercial value of the medium in any significant way.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2011, 01:35:35 am »

It becomes more valuable to society as a whole.

This. 

With non-cultural information (science, patents, etc), the more people have access to it, the more people are able to contribute to or benefit from it.  With cultural information, its value comes from the process of sharing.

And it should be well-known on here by now that I'm an anarchist.  To put it bluntly, I think capitalism is obsolete.  It may have been useful at some point, but now it's a contradiction to the good of humanity.  We need to develop another way of life entirely -- one that doesn't operate under assumptions of scarcity or make scarcity equivalent with value.
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Frumple

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2011, 01:37:17 am »

What? How is this so? At all? In any way. Unless you mean access as the ability and willingness to pay for it (which of course would make it non unique thus I am fairly sure that is not what you mean) I seriously don't see how this is.

Can you give me a working example then extend that example to all information for me?
The medicine patents Salmon mentioned, I think, is a really good working example. The value of that information increases (i.e. the actual usefulness of it grows), as more people are able to have access to the fruits that spring from it. In other words, what value does medicine have for a dead man, who couldn't use the medicine because the source of it (the patent) was controlled and artificially prevented from being produced cheaply?

Access means the ability and willingness to use the information. The more people have access to information, the greater the value of it, in that more can be done with it. This isn't value as in monetary worth, but instead as in functional worth.

The functional value of information grows as more people can access it. It decreases as less people are able to access it. This is completely unlike other things. Most physical things diminish in value as more people have access, because the material is spread over a greater number of users, whereas information does not decrease in material when spread over many users. That's the difference.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #130 on: December 30, 2011, 02:41:44 am »

Two things.

One:

Professional>Non Professional

Of course that is not true in all cases, but overall it pretty clearly is. The increase in Indie stuff is not from a failing of professional workers, but rather from the increase in distribution methods that allow indies to act like professionals. You hint at a system where there is no professional. Or at least vastly less. That will be a drop in quality.

Two:

If you call yourself a anarchist, why would you espouse these ideals that are... Basically the opposite of anarchy? I mean, this bothers me, and has for a while. You call yourself a anarchist, but act way more in line with socialist thinking. I would think, since there is no deference between pure Capitalism and Anarchy, you would want... Something else.

And of course capitalism is obsolete, or rather it has never been a good idea. It is just a theory that can sometimes be applied in some situations.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 02:43:17 am by Criptfeind »
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Willfor

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #131 on: December 30, 2011, 02:57:59 am »

Anarchy, to me, is the brief period between civilized society and despotism via warlords. Some might say that the latter is part and parcel with anarchy.
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Bauglir

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2011, 03:18:15 am »

If you call yourself a anarchist, why would you espouse these ideals that are... Basically the opposite of anarchy? I mean, this bothers me, and has for a while. You call yourself a anarchist, but act way more in line with socialist thinking. I would think, since there is no deference between pure Capitalism and Anarchy, you would want... Something else.
As someone who acts in a similar manner in a lot of respects, I might be able to answer this question. Basically, money (or whatever good fills a similar niche) is not equivalent to freedom, and treating it as if it is leads to some obnoxious places and some internally inconsistent ones. It's obvious that complete freedom for all is impossible, so being an anarchist and accepting that boils down to trying to maximize freedom. Even if that requires curtailing some specific freedom of a few in the process.

Or at least, this is my thinking. I think he and I have rather different ideas on how to implement these ideas practically, but that's a different thing. Practice is distinct from philosophy, after all.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #133 on: December 30, 2011, 03:21:07 am »

Wouldn't accepting that boil down to not being a anarchist? I mean anarchy is right there is the name. If you want to follow a philosophy that already has a name why would you call yourself the radical opposite?
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Rafal99

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2011, 03:56:52 am »

Lets not shift the topic towards anarchy discussion, there were other threads for it.

As for my 2 cents about piracy.

Well it is not a theft for me.
Selling pirated copies for money should be a crime for sure.

But sharing data over internet for free? It is silly to criminalize that.
You won't change people's nature, if they can get something for free with a few clicks and for no consequences, they will.
Imagine if you could get a new computer with latest hardware for a few clicks with no consequences. It will just spawn in your room and everything was the same as if you bought it. Would you do it? Yes.
Selling people "the right to use something" while the thing itself is available for free is an unrealistic marketing model. It is like if someone sold you a TV with a license that says "only you can watch it not your family" but with no real means to execute that. You probably won't obey that.
Some companies are moving to a different distribution model so that you to have to buy an account and play on official server. Now this is a realistic. But selling some abstract right that you will or will not obey is not. You can't stop piracy, it inherent to the distribution model. You can't fight it because you would have to monitor the whole internet and people still will find ways around. In other words fighting piracy is pointless and costs more and does more harm than the piracy itself.
Do creators deserve money for their products? Yes of course! But the world is far from perfect and some things are the way they are.
But if they make a good product they will make profit for sure. Unless they try really hard to lower their sales but including intrusive DRMs and the like.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 03:59:29 am by Rafal99 »
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