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[MorleyDev]

Theft, by the legal definition, requires one to deprive one of the stolen item so only really applies to physical goods.

You can argue that a sale is similar all you want, the words as written in the Theft Act (1968): "A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and "thief" and "steal" shall be construed accordingly."

[Solifuge]

I don't deny that, but this is a discussion about whether it should be considered theft, not strictly about whether the law presently considers it theft or not. I am arguing that, since intangible electronic media, which can be copied at no material cost, is a relatively new thing, we need to take a step back, and reconsider what theft means; that was the point of this discussion.

[MorleyDev]

You could argue it's a Fraudulent conversion, which is "exerting unauthorized use or control of someone else's property", the definition of "property" is the determining factor there (is intellectual property included in, or separate to, property?). This is covered by the UK theft act as an act of theft.

I'd say it's not a new concept. Copyright law was originally made for books, after all. The only thing new is the scale.

[Skyrunner]

This post is about the profit stolen argument.

Posters before me have asserted that piracy steals publishers of their profit, therfore it is theft. The thing is, it is possible profit lost, not real profit. A direct metaphor is you, deciding whether or not to buy one fine specimen of cantaloupe. You decided to buy it, when your friend dashes up and persuades you not to. The grocery store just lost some possible profit thanks to you meddling friend. Can it sue him?

Possiblity is not actuality. Perhaps some of the issue is that the publisher feels indignent that you are playing their games without paying up for it. Consider: how good was that game? You didn't pay; meaning you felt the company was not deserving of your money in one way or another.

Think about this too: even with the claims of losses of millions each year, last time I heard the major publishers are rolling along mighty fine. Think of it as greed. Greed for another couple million, when the coffers have manyfold more.

The "loss" that publishers report may actually be a sort of unearned income the companies want.

I agree with one poster(Was it Glyph?) that said companies must improve before complaining about pirates. Give customers something pirates can't have. One example is Minecraft. It is a laughably easy game to pirate: just copy the files of a client that was logged in even once and you're set to go. Yet, it has many millions of dollars. Coincidence?

[Bauglir]

I'd say it's far more reasonable to assert that the loss is due to production cost, not due to the lost sale. When you steal a bottle of wine, the grocery store hasn't lost the money you didn't spend, but they lost the money they paid to purchase the bottle of wine. Similarly, when you pirate a video game, the publisher has lost the money they paid the developers to produce it, advertisers to promote it, and factories to stamp it onto CDs (EDIT: divided up among however many copies were sold, plus 1 for your piracy, for every independent act of piracy, minus whatever income the game has generated, presumably with a minimum of 0, I THINK. Because I kind of just shat this formula out on the spur of the moment).

The problem is mostly that, in the latter case, the cost to produce the CD is negligible and all other costs have no relation to how many copies are sold, while in the latter case there's a fairly strong correlation between the number of bottles of wine sold and the cost to create them. This makes it a lot harder to deal with assigning value to the information, because the value of each copy ends up being based on how many copies there are, which is the opposite of the usual situation.

I don't have a good solution right now. But I do have a bottle of wine, so that's something.

[Luke_Prowler]

"I wasn't going to pay for it anyway" and "One sale isn't going to hurt corperations" are two very lousy arguments. For the first, if you don't like the game (or whatever) then why did you pirate it in the first place? It's one thing if you just doing it to demo and then delete it afterward once you've decided then it's not a problem. But if you keep on to it and even play it after you'd said "it sucks", then appearent it's good enough to play but not to pay. Is your money extra special somehow? And second, it's true that one lost potential sale is not going to harm anyone, but if everyone (or just the majority) did it then the company/artist would be unable to continue making whatever.

[Vector]

Y'all got some interesting assumptions about budget, there.

[Luke_Prowler]

Y'all got some interesting assumptions about budget, there.

You might want to be more specific

[Criptfeind]

If you are talking about affording them, which I believe you are, then, one, that was not really the point at the time, two, honestly if you can't afford the games often enough you should just get your entertainment for free legitimately. I mean, I am not really going to despise someone who pirates because they can not afford it, but there are ways to be entertained for free without pirating. Also, often, if you can afford the like 500+ dollar computer you need to run a game saying you can not afford it strikes me as most likely untrue.

[Skyrunner]

Is your money extra special somehow? And second, it's true that one lost potential sale is not going to harm anyone, but if everyone (or just the majority) did it then the company/artist would be unable to continue making whatever.

First, I want to say that the claim "if everyone does it and it is harmful, you shan't" is as bad as "only me". Think about whether everyone does it. Do they? Does the majority of people pirate so much, a company has been sent underwater? No, at least not without good reason. In fact, there are some companies that accidentally encourage piracy due to overzealous DRM.

Second, is my money extra special? Yes. My money is as special as a single vote you would cast in an election. Money means in one way or another support of the company. My money is extra special. To you, your money should be extra special too.

[Frumple]

First, I want to say that the claim "if everyone does it and it is harmful, you shan't" is as bad as "only me". Think about whether everyone does it.

*fist shake* Kant, you bastid whore, get your paws off of him!

Yes, yes, we realize you wanted to logically back up the golden rule (not Murphy's, the jew's), but your system has hellacious trouble actually dealing with reality! No, no, you shouldn't tell the murderous person the fellow they're after is in your house. Your house has no back door and no windows on the first floor besides the ones in your living room, the person you're hiding couldn't have left. Yes, yes, it's very logical and pretty, but it's not the whole story, however attractive your system is!

Back Kant, back I say!

... seriously though, the categorical imperative, which you're blatantly parroting (not saying that's a bad thing!), isn't exactly an unchallenged axiom So, yanno', don't just say it's gospel.

Just wanted to get that off my chest. Got total brolove for Kant, but his stuff gives me fits half the time it doesn't have me consensually molesting it in joy.

[Luke_Prowler]

Is your money extra special somehow? And second, it's true that one lost potential sale is not going to harm anyone, but if everyone (or just the majority) did it then the company/artist would be unable to continue making whatever.

First, I want to say that the claim "if everyone does it and it is harmful, you shan't" is as bad as "only me". Think about whether everyone does it. Do they? Does the majority of people pirate so much, a company has been sent underwater? No, at least not without good reason. In fact, there are some companies that accidentally encourage piracy due to overzealous DRM.

Second, is my money extra special? Yes. My money is as special as a single vote you would cast in an election. Money means in one way or another support of the company. My money is extra special. To you, your money should be extra special too.

Obvious piracy has not gotten bad enough to crush a company, I was being hypothetical. And I know that one's money is important to them, but the part of supporting a artist is that you shouldn't get the benefits of the people you don't like. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's like going to a fundraiser for something you hate and eating all the food.

[Skyrunner]

Kant? Categorial imperative?  o_O I'm confused.

@Luke - Well, I'm pretty weak in that area... The only thing I absolutely am sure in is of the claim of "lost profit" is rather shaky.

[Tilla]

Things cannot possibly as bad as the content industry likes to pretend; check out the CEO at Universal this year, who gave himself a raise of $50 million. That's basically the wages of my entire town for a year, he gets as a raise. Fuck these people.

[Fenrir]

Kant? Categorial imperative?  o_O I'm confused.

As I understand it, the basic premise of the Categorical Imperative is that you should do whatever it is that you would want to be a universal moral law — or something similar.

Obvious piracy has not gotten bad enough to crush a company, I was being hypothetical.

You were being irrelevantly hypothetical, I am afraid. “If everyone did it, it would be bad,” is only a good argument for preaching piracy as a moral wrong, but it is a bad argument to explain to me why I should not pirate things, as I am not everyone.

And I know that one's money is important to them, but the part of supporting a artist is that you shouldn't get the benefits of the people you don't like.

Why should I not?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The physical limitations of coporeal foodstuffs is hardly relevant to digital media.

It's like going to a fundraiser for something you hate and eating all the food.

I would totally go to a Nazi fundraiser and eat all the food.

In before “LOL OMG GODWINZ U FAIL”.