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[MaskedMiner]

Ah, I see... So I should use tenacity or term willpower? Ok, thanks!

[Starver]

It's what I would use, put it that way.

It's not completely 100% clear-cut, and speaker and context is all.  "I'll give him one thing, though, he's a stubborn bastard..." is neither negative nor insulting, just crude.  And "your tenacity amazes me, Mr Bond..." could be the words spoken down upon the hog-tied secret agent by a villain who considers his adversary's efforts to be utterly futile (although hasn't read the Evil Overlord list thoroughly enough, I'm willing to bet).

Also, I can't speak for various colonial variants of English, and would even hesitate to be considered authoritative in my own variant.  Also, also, way off topic, but I just thought that was a possibly non-rhetorical question that I could try to answer.

[Zaphod728]

You also have to remember that nature of Dwarf Fortress' development is different too. Toady isn't creating the game for donators, donators are just helping him achieve his dream and enjoy the work at same time. While Toady can't develop the game without donators because he needs money to live, he isn't creating it for them, hes creating it for himself. I would make allegory with some sort of other art type, but I can't remember one that would be suitable. Anyway, point is, he can do with his project whatever he wants to whether it really is "Good idea" or not.

Yeah i thinks its great to see someone making a living doing exactly what they love doing, i dont even know if the concept of a business model applies to DF, now that i think about it. I am just happy that he is able to continue.


For the whole bug fix thing, in my experience bug fixing is not fun at all, and can take quite a bit of time. I have spent hours pouring over code, only to find some tiny stupid thing that was causing problems. Just something to keep in mind when there is something that is annoying the crap out of you.

[Babylon]

Honestly, Dwarf Fortress seems to be Toady's dream project. Kind of art project you want to do yourself because otherwise it is not yours anymore. It doesn't matter whether it is impossibly hard and time consuming to finish it, if he has enough willpower, he will do it because otherwise he might as well give up. If I would create framework of puppet and someone else finish it, it wouldn't be mine alone anymore. So yeah, I can understand Toady, though my own personal ideals make loneliness abhorrent and I would prefer to have awesome team of people to do games with. But when I do other forms of art(yeah, I consider games work of art, bite me ), I hate it when teacher starts painting on my painting to show how to "improve it" so I can understand it.

You have to remember that Dwarf Fortress isn't  really usual kind of game. If it would be, there wouldn't be need to plan so much detail, you could have less and people would still consider it great. Its life project that you don't have any other reason to do than that it would be awesome and you want to do it.

So yeah, while I personally would prefer to have team of people to do games with(mainly because I can never see myself having all skills needed), I find it admirable what Toady does and it would be preferable for you to not tell what he should do in your opinion.

You also have to remember that nature of Dwarf Fortress' development is different too. Toady isn't creating the game for donators, donators are just helping him achieve his dream and enjoy the work at same time. While Toady can't develop the game without donators because he needs money to live, he isn't creating it for them, hes creating it for himself. I would make allegory with some sort of other art type, but I can't remember one that would be suitable. Anyway, point is, he can do with his project whatever he wants to whether it really is "Good idea" or not.

The metaphor I would use for his business model is the rennaissance artist who had a patron who paid for his expenses.  The artist would try to please the patron, but the art was not commissioned, it was just that being a patron was a status symbol for the nobility and rich merchants of the era.

Toady is patroned by a group of normal people as opposed to a single wealthy individual, but the philosophy is similar.

[MaskedMiner]

Hmm, I think that might work sort of except for that... Well, okay, I guess being listed among champions DOES sort of count as status symbol 

[vertinox]

I came here on discussion thread about a new 3d game that might be Dwarf Fortress Light in 3d.

"A Game of Dwarves."

After reading this thread it seems like Toady doesn't want to give up creative control over his project, but it seems like with GoD and Towns that people have noticed his ideas and started creating their own.

GoD probaly probably already has way more resources than Toady has ever had in his life for the game budget, but I doubt it will come even close to the complexity of Dwarf Fortress. That said, it will probably be more popular due to its GUI and marketing budget.

Now we don't know if the devs of GoD ever played DF (just that they are hoping to be the successor of Dungeon Keeper in one thread), but this is probably a sign that Toady's project has reached critical mass and that from here on out major companies (or people with more resources) are going to be copying his ideas.

It might be the only chance of time in which Toady can approach a developer with his idea and say "Look, I have this independent game that is doing pretty well, I'll sell you the rights to make a clone as long as I get the rights to keep making my own game as well as a share of sales of your clone."

That way Toady doesn't have to work with other people and the concept will still earn him more money that it would otherwise.

If he does nothing, then eventually someone like EA (or someone evil of the like) will just steal his ideas, change enough to avoid a copyright lawsuit, and possibly destroy the DF community by making a clone but with a better UI.

Now the DF community might survive a DF clone by EA, but new persons and new donations might no longer come his way... Its just random thoughts I like to add that I started playing DF after I played Towns which someone said was a DF clone. I will have to say I like towns interface better, but its lack of complexity and bugs made me try DF in which I watched about an hour worth of Youtube videos to learn how to play.

[10ebbor10]

There have been multiple of these dwarfs clones already, and the only thing they have in common with DF is dwarfs, 3d and some kind of management. Also I seriously doubt any of the gamemakers would pay Toady for it, since changing the game enough to avoid copyright claims( Like cutting away a lot of complexity) is both cheaper and will only result in a larger audience.

[tolkafox]

Goddamnit man, another one of these threads?

Heh.

This is like saying children need more parents, or a painting needs more artists. Greatness takes the lifetime of an individual, and can not be halved by adding another person. If I have to become a legendary waiter to play awesomeness, then damnit, legendary I shall become!

How long have we been waiting, anyways? O.o

I knew that was coming...

[Starver]

If I have to become a legendary waiter...

Spoiler: IRTA... (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: ...if not actually (click to show/hide)

[ravaught]

I have been reading over these posts, and I see a lot of truth and a lot of garbage on both sides of the fence. So, let's see if we can do some sanity checking here...

First, let's get this out of the way, as it is DF WILL be stolen. It is not a question of if, it is a question of when, and that is if NOTHING  changes. I looked at the DwarvesSH sight and it is quite obvious that project is going to die a horribly ugly death, but it only serves to prove the OPs point that Toady Keeping the cards close to his chest solves nothing. Regardless of whether Toady is closed source, open source, a AAA Publishing Company or the Lone Ranger, if someone wants his code, they will get it. Pure and simple. That is not even an argument.

That also eliminates a few other arguments, such as forking. Footkerchief, I hate to break it to you, but your argument on this has already been shot in the foot. Forks have cropped up and failed already. They will crop up again and fail. And they will keep doing this until someone succeeds BECAUSE THE SOURCE IS ALREADY OUT THERE. It may not be pretty, and it may not be the latest and greatest that is available, but its roots are already out there. The only way to stop that is to have a dev cycle that is rapid enough to leave them choking on your bits wondering how the hell you did it, and to have a game that is so blindingly awesome that creates its own gravity, drawing "potential fans" in.

I also agree with the OP that the dev cycle will continue to slow until it simply stops. No matter how much resolve Toady shows, that is inevitable. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the man, but I have not succumbed to hero worship yet. As a game designer, I can still look at this project objectively and see with a fair amount of certainty what the future will be for it if the path doesn't change.

Toady doesn't want to work with other people. Wonderful!! But ultimately, HE ALREADY IS!! So that argument loses all weight. He works with this community. He works with his alpha testers. He works with the people doing the DF Talks. He works with the large volume of people submitting feedback and bug reports. He works with the media when he does an interview. All this crap about 'Toady is an island' and 'DF is Toady's Baby' is garbage to begin with. Toady quit being an island the instant he took the first suggestion or criticism or bug report regarding DF. And DF quit being 'his baby' the second he took a dollar from anyone as a contribution. Toady is the driving force and retains creative control. Super, but all that other is a load of forgotten beast extract.

Toady is a self-employed entrepreneur. Toady is selling a product, even if only via donations. Telling yourself and others anything else is a lie. Toady gives out free samples of his product in order to generate enough interest that not only will more people play, but more people will donate. The only difference between his model and that of publishers like Zynga is that Zynga gives you in game items for your 'donations' and Toady gives you art. And even that is not 100% true now since he added creatures to the game in exchange for donations.

DF is Toady's BUSINESS. You say as much when you call it his livelihood. If this is his life's work; if this is his livelihood; and if this is his business, then in his head it has to become larger than himself and his own preferences or personal grievances about working with others. That is not a criticism against Toady, it is just the way the world works.

Not only that, but from a more human and objective standpoint, no one in their right mind would expect that the contributions will remain at this same level or better for the rest of Toady's life. That means that either Toady has to sacrifice his life on the altar of DF, or he will eventually have to find another means to support his life.(Wife/Kids/Cars/House/etc) They may not be that important to him at the moment, but to expect that he will never meet someone and get that familiar urge to settle with someone is as ludicrous as it is shortsighted. To expect that this person or change in lifestyle, whomever and whatever it may be, will not only support the growing expenses but still willingly allow Toady to sacrifice all of his time to DF is equally ludicrous and shortsighted.
By identifying these future problems and setting things up in such a way that he is prepared not only financially, but time wise, Toady will be protecting his 'life's work' and his livelihood while opening up the possibility for him to have a life outside of DF.

I guess to wrap this up, I will say this. I have great respect and admiration for Toady and his ability as a one game designer to another. However, he has made the choice to step into the realm of being a professional game designer, and that means he has to be objective and critical, not only about his game and his vision, but about the methodologies he uses to make them a reality. A great game is not about the code, or the designer, it is about the players. Players are a notoriously fickle bunch, and things like long dev cycles, bugs, poor UI's, and such will eventually take them elsewhere, no matter how much they may love the game. 

Regards,
Tony

[KoffeeKup]

Logical and well thought out wall of text.

Regards,
Tony

Everything stated is true. Regardless of what Toady says DF is his business. He would be out of his apartment and without soda if it wasn't for the donations some of us give. What I don't understand is why he doesn't get a bunch of guys like himself to code the game with him. With just 3 other really awesome people like himself he could make this game into more than just his life work. The main problem is that Toady just doesn't want to do anything other than what he wants. He could still have complete control of this game with a small group of volunteers and get more donations because more people would find the game worth playing.

[ravaught]

Well, I do understand, regardless of whether or not I agree with it. I also understand his concerns about protecting his IP and about wanting it to remain under his control. However, I personally disagree with his methods and logic for a couple of reasons.

First and foremost, the more exposure his IP gets the safer it is. While that may seem counter intuitive, there are several points to back this up. The more exposure DF gets, from either the media or its fan base, the more people there are that will recognize and report knockoffs and clones. That will also make it more difficult for companies to copy his IP directly and claim it as their own.

Secondly, greater exposure will also improve his revenue stream. Provided that, at least for the moment, he continues to live in the same minimalist fashion, every additional dollar generated is that much longer that he can continue to work on this project.

At some point or another Toady will end up dealing with lawyers to protect his IP. This day and age, if you create something truly innovative like DF then it is only a question of when, not if. Increasing his revenue stream proactively will make him better able to deal with this when it arrives.

The only way to successfully keep this revenue stream growing is to provide a better product with more innovation, fewer bugs, and more appeal than anyone else. DF is incredibly innovative in its own right, and I don't think anyone here will argue against that. However, it is falling short in the bugs and appeal categories. If you look at the various knockoffs that have spawned, all of these are focused on one of these two things. They KNOW they can't compete with the innovation, so they are mainly trying to compete on appeal. DwarveSH and Minecraft shoot for a 3D interface to play up to peoples addiction to shiny graphics. Goblin Camp was trying to play up to peoples addiction to the mouse and demonstrate that a better UI was needed.

These are clues and warning signs for Toady that he, it would seem on the surface at least, has been stubbornly ignoring. That was one of the reasons I suggested a while back that he knock it on the head with the feature creep for a bit and take the time to sit down and come up with a solution to the bugs and UI issues.

Lastly, having a few people that specialize in certain areas can offer him huge long term benefits. A person that is really good with security can help with protecting his code. It won't stop the reverse engineering, but ultimately, it isn't really supposed too. It is supposed to slow down the process so that the competition can not keep up. Having someone that is shit hot in architecture and optimization could really help sort out some of the issues with pathing, frame rate, multi-threading, GPU integration etc etc, working on low level core engine functionality. Neither of these roles would have ANY significant negative impact on the creative control or design of DF. There are literally dozens of ways that people could contribute in a non-creative role that would dramatically improve the overall experience of playing DF. If anything they would free Toady up to do what it is that says he wants to do, which is to build the most spectacularly awesome Dwarf Simulator game ever made.

That's just my opinion though. You don't cook in another man's kitchen and tell him he bought the wrong food. Toady will rise or fall by his own choices. If he can not, or will not, or simply chooses not to work with any of the people willing to support his dream by giving him their time and expertise instead of their money, that is on him. In the meantime, all any of us can do is sit back and enjoy the ride while it last, and give Toady whatever support he will accept for as long as he will accept it.

Regards,
Tony

[thisisjimmy]

I also think it would be great if Toady could get a team to help him, while maintaining creative control.

However, trying to improve the security of the code is a waste of time.  Rip-offs are generally coded from scratch.  The tricky parts of making a game are the game design and polish.  A good programmer, with a detailed understanding of the game design, could probably code a DF clone in 6 months.  It would be easier to re-code DF than to work with the disassembled C++.

Fortunately, most indie developers don't want to make an exact clone.  They'd rather take inspiration from DF and add their own ideas and improvements.  And it takes a lot longer to add your own creative ideas than to simply clone someone else's.

What Toady should worry about is not clones, but DF-inspired games.  Sooner or later, someone will make a game in the genre that's better than Dwarf Fortress.  We've already seen a number of promising games, like Towns, A Game of Dwarves, and Goblin Camp.  Each of those were coded from scratch in relatively short amount of time.  And I think a lot more games like these will come.  I get the impression that the frequency and quality of DF-inspired games has been accelerating over the past year.

[ravaught]

There is a VERY good reason why the Game Dev cycle is generally not much more than two years from start to finish. Game of Dwarves was the first clone that I have seen that has the potential to be even remotely problematic.

Footkerchief, that game will be where probably 50% of your 'potential audience' members wind up, and you can bet your butt that a AAA developer is not going to give credit to a one man operation unless they have to.

I really want Toady to succeed because I really love DF. Not going to repeat my previous post though.

[FallingWhale]

I don't understand what game source, forks, creative control, debugging, UI, begging(the good kind if someone doesn't know what I mean to convey), donation systems, or what DF is.

Regards,
Tony

That's what I read.