Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Criptfeind]

Guys, can we stop stamping on Dakorma's face?

Sure, we don't need to agree with him, and it looks like most of us don't. I don't. But do we need to insult him?

We might like the games, but it's not as if we made any of the things he listed - we probably shouldn't treat it as if he just personally attacked a relative of ours. 

Hey. Man. He started a argument, and now people are arguing. I would certainly say no one is being more abrasive here then he is, so what's the issue? The implication of what he says are quick frankly insults, to respond the same seems only natural to me.

[Enzo]

For the record, I am not insulting Dakorma. I am trying to convince him his point of view is flawed, or encourage him to express his ideas in a way that is convincing.

I am a Media Studies major. Arguing about this shit sustains me.

Right now I think his real point is that "Mainstream games have declined in average quality", which I don't entirely agree with but can understand, but he is expressing it as "Games are not art because I don't like mainstream games".

[SirAaronIII]

The implication of what he says are quick frankly insults, to respond the same seems only natural to me.

Yeah, uhhh....

• Do not pick a fight or insult another poster.  Do not continue a fight if you feel you have been insulted.  Report it to the moderator.  If you instead respond in kind, you run the risk of being considered part of the problem.

[MrWiggles]

My first reply, was completely aggressive and flamey. Other then that, nah, the retorts have been pretty calm. It just seems like Dakorma face is being smashed in, because he's so hopefully wrong. But hey, almighty 19 years olds have often been known to carry true insight on various subjects. He might very well be a Christopher Paolini. He (Paolini) started to write his novel series, because there were no good fantasy novels. (Fuck LotRs, Harry Potter, So You Want To Be A Wizard, A Wring In Time, Dresden Files, ect ect).

[mr. macduggan]

Bastion. Limbo. About 1 out of every 2 indie games, to be honest.

[Cthulhu]

I haven't read the whole thread, but is Dakorma just listing off a specific selection of games to support his viewpoint and ignoring others?

Also, art is subjective.  Saying something is or isn't art based on your arbitrary ideas (especially when you're cherrypicking your examples) is completely meaningless.

[Dakorma]

For the record, I am not insulting Dakorma. I am trying to convince him his point of view is flawed, or encourage him to express his ideas in a way that is convincing.

I am a Media Studies major. Arguing about this shit sustains me.

Right now I think his real point is that "Mainstream games have declined in average quality", which I don't entirely agree with but can understand, but he is expressing it as "Games are not art because I don't like mainstream games".

Mostly the games aren't art, was blatant troll bait(to get people in the door), I'll admit that. But the people talking about how I shouldn't complain is a fairly worthless idea. Again, it's like saying, "Just stay inside your home, and tolerate that the majority of the companies are treating your opinions as bullshit, accept that the water is giving you cancer, live as best you can." Since I was about 9 I've lived and breathed gaming, I've gone back and played the truly great games I missed because I wasn't allowed on the PC till about 14, they are better than anything to come out this year, or the past 3 years. Again most of the games have been repettitive games, that focus solely on making as much money as possible, by releasing "Sure things," Here's the fun thing, Twisted Metal, wasn't a sure thing, Deus Ex, wasn't a sure thing, FALLOUT 1 wasn't a sure thing, Final Fantasy 1, wasn't a sure thing, Chronotrigger wasn't a sure thing, Metal Gear Solid, wasn't a sure thing, WORLD OF WARCRAFT, WAS NOT A SURE THING. These games evolved from not sure things into some of the most massive hits possible for their times. The hits that we have now, are specifically engineered to be hits, and do not do anything truly creative. They are over marketed, over sold, and people accept them, because the general gaming media, is scared into marketing these things as the best thing ever. Because to not do so, could deny you things like interviews, previews, review copies. And the media has gotten lazy and notoriously accepting of the measures put into place by publishers in ensure good reviews. The gaming media no longer has to STRUGGLE to get things like review copies, or interviews, and are instead fed them, like gigantic bee queens, under the veil of a PR department, preventing anyone from making any slips or speaking any real ill words, however constructive, about a game. Again these are the Happy Enterprises, Working with them is the HAPPIEST, most creatively soul sucking environment possible. Where you can work 40 hours of overtime in a week and only get paid 3 regular hours as a result.

(This is coming from someone whose closest friend works for PC Gamer as a writer, and whose uncle works for EA as an artist.)

Also a note, I come from the school of thought, that you demean the argument, not the arguer, I have not directly demeaned anyone in this thread, I've called their arguments all kinds of stupid, but have not implied much about them.

As far as my face being smashed in, yeah, when are questioning the quality of things people like, you should expect insults being slung at you, I'm frankly insulted that the core of people arguments thus far, haven't been as in depth as I had expect. And have mostly been, a kind of, "NOTHING TO SEE HERE JUST HARD CORES BEING HARD CORES," "OH LOOK AT HIM, HE'S SO STUPID FOR FORMING OPINIONS ABOUT THINGS THAT AREN'T MY OWN," "Look at this I can browse wikipedia, these are new franchises that almost all are mostly unknown and not being focused on at all, in favor of shitty sequels." or, "Hey, there's an economic crisis going on, lower your standards man, that's the only way gaming will survive." Which are invalid because, Hardcore fans form the nucleus of any fandom. Yeah, and, your point is. So you can browse wikipedia, it's kind of a floundering argument, but the point is, in every other media you get actual large reviews, even if they are pandering about everything you can think of, in gaming you get 3 paragraphs at most about the indie games, and 6 pages at most about the HUGENESS that is Skyrim, and the reviews spend most of the time going over bulletpoints, and not really analyzing anything critically. Finally, why should I lower my standards, when Activision makes 1.8 billion a year assuming 10 million subscribers to WoW. Respectively.

[sambojin]

Art is entirely subjective. What you consider good art even more-so.

As a hypothetical, imagine you had four pictures in front of you. They are all renditions of the same scene, just for different mediums. All of a rather stunning blonde, pert, naked, legs slightly parted, wearing quite a nice hat. One is a painting in a quite original style, another a computerised jpeg, another has the words "2012 Calender" under it and the last has "Bootylicious Babes 27" emblazoned across the picture.

Art is a difficult thing to define. You are allowed to like all the pictures, you can even consider all or none of them to be art. You're just not right about it because of your thinking on the matter.

Artistic games are even more difficult to define.

[Enzo]

As far as my face being smashed in, yeah, when are questioning the quality of things people like, you should expect insults being slung at you, I'm frankly insulted that the core of people arguments thus far, haven't been as in depth as I had expect.

The arguments probably haven't seemed all that in depth because:
1) It's incredibly hard to understand what your point is.
2) Half the time you seem to misunderstand other poster's arguments.
3) The other half of the time you pick a small part of it and focus solely on that.

Good troll or bad debater? Not sure, but I've said my piece. At this point I'm pretty skeptical that anything the OP says is going to make me revise my opinion, especially since he still apparently doesn't understand what it is. I guess I'm done 

[Neonivek]

I am a Media Studies major. Arguing about this shit sustains me.

Dang it! I thought I killed the last of the Media Studies Vampires.

[fred1248]

 Ok, I spent about 40 minutes reading through this retarded who-has-a-bigger-dick olympics, and I've come to a conclusion. Take it, or leave it, Q.E.D. If you don't like it, you can complain about it, but you don't have to go waving your gigantic dick around and force people to stop play what they've been enjoying. No matter how colossal mess the game is, someone's still gonna like it. Frankly speaking this entire thread is a maelstrom of random insults and very strong personal opinions. I don't care what kind of crazy ass game you like, but don't you ever try to shove your dick down my throat.

[Untouchable]

Guys, can we stop stamping on Dakorma's face?

Sure, we don't need to agree with him, and it looks like most of us don't. I don't. But do we need to insult him?

We might like the games, but it's not as if we made any of the things he listed - we probably shouldn't treat it as if he just personally attacked a relative of ours. 

He has been acting fairly childish and abasive.


And for the matter, art is subjective. I consider Suikoden II to be a piece of literature art as well as a supurb example of how games can be considered art. But I also love Bayonetta and God Hand, two great games that are too low brow with their humour for most people to consider art. But Bayonetta has an incredible jazz soundtrack while God Hand raelly does make you feel like a character out of Fist of the North Star.

[Criptfeind]

The implication of what he says are quick frankly insults, to respond the same seems only natural to me.

Yeah, uhhh....

• Do not pick a fight or insult another poster.  Do not continue a fight if you feel you have been insulted.  Report it to the moderator.  If you instead respond in kind, you run the risk of being considered part of the problem.

Let me try to rephrase that, there is a certain level of anger in any thread set by the OP, the subject matter, and the people involved. Under that threshold of anger it is not insulting at all to talk at, because that is how the conversation naturally goes. I do not believe, other then Orange bottle and perhaps Dakorma himself, anyone has passed that level.

[Flying Dice]

My first reply, was completely aggressive and flamey. Other then that, nah, the retorts have been pretty calm. It just seems like Dakorma face is being smashed in, because he's so hopefully wrong. But hey, almighty 19 years olds have often been known to carry true insight on various subjects. He might very well be a Christopher Paolini. He (Paolini) started to write his novel series, because there were no good fantasy novels. (Fuck LotRs, Harry Potter, So You Want To Be A Wizard, A Wring In Time, Dresden Files, ect ect).

Please tell me you didn't just seriously use Paolini's rubbish as an example of good, original fantasy. Please.

[SirAaronIII]

Well it's OBVIOUSLY better than Harry Potter, LoTR, and the other things he mentioned. Right? Right???

Let me try to rephrase that, there is a certain level of anger in any thread set by the OP, the subject matter, and the people involved. Under that threshold of anger it is not insulting at all to talk at, because that is how the conversation naturally goes. I do not believe, other then Orange bottle and perhaps Dakorma himself, anyone has passed that level.

I guess that works.