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Author Topic: So why are we an artform again?  (Read 7337 times)

Kilroy the Grand

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2011, 04:30:23 am »

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Oh mighty and wise 19 year old, knowledgable and right about all aspects of video games, please tell us more!
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Dakorma

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2011, 04:33:09 am »

Kinseti, once again you're strawmanning, you're forgetting something, THE MEDIA, what is the media focusing on, what is the populous focusing on. Mario Galaxy didn't make many waves outside Nintendo Media and Forums, WoW is a PC only but has become a staple of popular culture none the less, the biggest one you've listed, is Modern Warfare 3, which is exactly like Modern Warfare 2, which is exactly like Modern Warfare 1, which SPAN 6 years, and have sold MORE THAN ANY OTHER ITEM IN ANY MEDIUM on launch. The music media and THUS THE EXECS are focusing on those particular genres. Deus Ex, warranted spreads in just about every magazine you can think of. It was talked about by damn near everyone.

I've read this like 3 times and I still don't understand the argument you're trying to make. You talk about the media, then the impact of my examples on popular culture, then MW3 being a ripoff, then music execs, then dues ex. Most of what you say is true, but I don't see what you're shooting at there.

I may have been strawmanning, but my point was succinct and hopefully clear.  Kayne West is to P. Diddy what Modern Warfare 3 is to Ghost Recon. There don't need to be any great artistic strides, because people know what to expect, they like it, and they're gonna buy it. Hence, publishers are all over that shit. Especially in times of economic uncertainty, publishers are going to go for the sure thing rather than the risky venture. It has always been this way. All entertainment media suffer from this to a certain extent. Those with greater overhead (Movies, big budget games) suffer from it moreso than those with smaller production cost (music recording, indie games, novels). Modern Warfare 3 is business, not art, but that doesn't mean art doesn't exist in games. Try to be more clear if you're trying to refute that.

So just to be clear, your argument is that we shouldn't expect the best of an artform, when it's a struggle?

Tell that to pretty much any artistic revolution. Tell that to the early proponents of film as art. Tell that to the early photographers.

You are saying that we should just let our expectations SLIDE away, simply because, HURR DURR, publishers are publishers. MOREOVER that we shouldn't complain about the standard quality of games dipping.

I'm going to be an asshole here and say, fuck that. Why the hell should I lower my standards because of the state of the industry?

Economic times are hard when games are making BILLIONS A YEAR. 10 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS PAYING 15 dollars a month, makes. 1,800,000,000 dollars a year. For servers that can't cost more than about 10 grand a month to maintain, and a staff that probably goes without wages half the time, because "HEY YOU WORK FOR THE GAMES INDUSTRY AT HAPPY INC, THE FUNNEST MOST CREATIVELY SOUL SUCKING JOBS WITH THE LOWEST WAGES FOR THE MOST SKILLED PEOPLE ON EARTH."

Activision, and EA(They've gotten better,) make money hand over fist, over foot, they have the most consistent incomes in any medium right now. And they don't choose to spend any money on creativity really. It's just this bland genre game, after the next bland genre game, and the companies better release one a year, or else. Not only that but they have a history of avoiding paying wages to people, and pressuring for lowered wages if people want a place in the credits.

Very nice, Killroy, targeting the person, not the argument, that's the mark of a poor mind you know. Reported.
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MrWiggles

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« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2011, 05:38:40 am »

In the lists that I've provided, there quite a few of those games published by EA and Activision-Blizzard.
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I dont think you can be satisfied actually. You seem to be filled with lolz internet opinion, and lack the life experience to make in depth arguments, or the hours of actually playing games to really get to know gaming. Maybe playing games, isnt a hobby for you. Not everyone has to likes games, and you can go over to Camp Superiority and discover a new media to become hateful over.

The game market has swelled. There lots of money, kinda, but its being fueled all toward future projects. EA, as examples, dont have swell of cash reserves. All the money they make goes toward the next projects. Its a constant run.

There plenty of games a year, that based on new IP. New IP, is a complete and total risk. Franchises allow for those risk. MMO aren't for sure money makers, as they take years to turn a profit.

If a new game becomes successful, then it'll probably become a franchise. You're bashing Drake 3, but it wasn't to long ago, that Drake was a new IP. More or less, what Tomb Raider should have been on the current generation of consoles. Sure, it doesnt do anything /new/. But neither did Halo: Combat Evolved. Halo 1, is a run of the mill shooter, as far as level design, and game mechanics go. But the reason why its been adored, and grown into the juggernaut IP that it is today, because it executed those mechanics, and level design cliches  so well. Its an extremely well made FPS, but its was no way evolving the FPS genre. In fact, you dont see any actual FPS innovation until the introduction of Forge map editor and the Theater Mode. Which the other FPS contemporary to Halo 3, have so far failed to match.  Every FPS shooter should come with a map editor on par to Forge, come back with a Replay mode, on par to Theater Mode.

Dark Forces 1, is a superior FPS to that of say, Doom 2 or DN3d, as far as map innovation, moddablitiy, ect, though its been marginzled over time. DN3d is really remember because of its personality, not its gameplay. But hey, your 19, you were like ~3, when Dark Forces 1 came out. You've never experience when a new genre was in its infancy. Your lucky, you've never had to play WC1, or Dune 2. You get to stand on the shoulder of giants and revel at the their more mature status, of say Star Craft 2.

Dune 2, you couldnt select more then one unit. There was no ability to micro, and destroying the opponent base, was just annoying. WC1, was just a painfully slow game, it took forever to do anything. Either your units wouldnt die, or they would be fragile little paper mache dolls.
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The video game industry, isn't stagnating, if anything there more variety of what kinds of games you like play then ever before. More new IP then in years previos. Go back to Dark Forces one, 1995ish, there maybe 20 or so good notable games released, and decade and half later, there more notable games released before spring.

You bashed on Skyrim, but Skyrim is a direct response from the feedback of its previous installments. Its maker listen to its fanbase. Sure, it has problems. But all games have problems. The further back you go, the more problems game have.

For a fast and dirty count of 'bugs' in Skyrim, a word count of the bugs section for Skyrim, as according to uesp.net.
5967 *

Word Count of Oblivion 'bugs' as according to uesp.net
9896 *

Now, Skyrim, when compared to Oblivion is still a pretty young game, so its safe to say, that not all of its bugs known, where as with Oblivion, its safe to say, that all of its bugs are known. But considering the number of player it has, and the number of anti-fans that makes has picked up, I wouldnt be surprised if most of the bugs aren't already discovered.

Now, a word count of course, isn't an accurate way to determine 'buggness', but hopefully, its at least illustrative.

*The word counts contain things like section Headers and other minor none bug released word usage.
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Really excellent, ground breaking games, are going to become rarer and rarer as time moves on, because, there will be less, and less new ground to break. Less way to work with the mechanics presented in the defined genres. We're very unlikely to get any new genre of video games.

But what is happening, is that the average game, is getting better, our exceptions of average games are rising.

Doomclones are way better then Pacman clones, or space invader clones. GTA clones even birthed a pretty nice franchise in its own right, the Saints Row franchise. You'll get poeple that the GTA clone, has surpassed its progenitor.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 05:41:18 am by MrWiggles »
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justinlee999

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2011, 05:43:59 am »

Here is a conservative list of new IP, from a list on Wikipedia. I know it doesnt cover all the release on Xbox Arcade of Wii Arcade or PSN. It also doesnt cover any games made for the smartphone platform.

Mindjack
Earthrise
Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together
Knights Contract
Cities in Motion
Gods Eater Burst
Homefront
The 3rd Birthday
Darkspore
Outland
The First Templar
Shadows of the Damned
Earth Defense Force: Insect Armageddon
Catherine
From Dust
El Shaddai: Ascension of the Metatron
Achron
Bodycount
Gatling Gears
Dead Island
Dawn of Fantasy
Rise of Nightmares
Nuclear Dawn
Dark Souls
Orcs Must Die!
Payday: The Heist
Afterfall: InSanity

Now, the franchise do totally out numbers the ones I've mange to find in a concentrated list, but its not like IP were not released this year.
TO: LUCT is hardly a new game at all, it's made during the SNES Era.

Looks like we need to BAAAAAAAN the dude who put in that entry, I'm pretty sure a nice look in Wikipedia itself will show it's not a new IP.
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MrWiggles

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2011, 05:49:14 am »

I checked the opening paragraph of the wiki page to see if was part of a franchise, or a remake. It would have taken to long to compile a list otherwise. Its also not like, the wiki list is exhaustive. Though it does look like, I totally goofed on that one.
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Neonivek

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2011, 06:26:48 am »

Anyhow Videogames and Movies are still in transition because the audiance STILL isn't bored of the same old just yet.

It is why I stopped harping on Koei. YES they do almost nothing but release the same games with slight alterations... But that is EXACTLY what their fans want.

Also the list has many old IPs. (Though I consider Darkspore to be a new IP... It is pretty much ENTIRELY unrelated to Spore... It is just coasting off the original's popularity for a boost)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 06:30:10 am by Neonivek »
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penguinofhonor

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2011, 06:39:41 am »

Okay, so here's one thing you're not getting about art - it's not universal. Let's take two conversations. First one, the one we just had:

You: No games from 2010-2011 are good artistically.
Me: Skyward Sword is.
You: I didn't like Skyward Sword. So it's not.

Conversation 2:
Me: No books by JD Salinger are good literature.
Some guy: The Catcher in the Rye is.
Me: I didn't like that book. So it's not.

It would be dumb of me to make that claim even though I hate the Catcher in the Rye. You're not guaranteed to like all good, artistic games. And when something you don't like gets a lot of praise from a lot of people, you can't shoot it down because you have problems with it most other people don't. I didn't notice any controller lag. The ridiculous positive reviews it got show that reviewers didn't either, or not enough to significantly impact their play.

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And at wiggles, I don't think there's less good games now. It's just that the newer something is, the less legitimate it seems. Look at any other art form - how many great paintings have been painted in the last decade? Great books written? Great plays written? Great poems?

Very few, it would seem. But in fifty years, will the 2000s seem so sparce in good art? I don't think so. It'll probably just take more years of scrutiny to legitimize them.

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Finally, on the idea that you can't make good games to make money: Edgar Allen Poe wrote for popularity and monetary success. He did not write much for himself, and received criticism for it. I mean, you can't create a great work when you're not doing artsy shit, can you?

Poe is the most popular classic author among regular, non-academic people to this day. My point here is that maybe you shouldn't immediately disregard some of the mass market appeal, because it might just keep its appeal for a hundred years.

Well, done with my random, disjointed 6AM points. Time for bed.
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Kilroy the Grand

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2011, 06:43:00 am »

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Sorry, I forgot that my comments were coated with orca nocere, the butt hurt poison.
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Neonivek

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2011, 06:43:33 am »

Skyward Sword has artistic merits beyond looking pretty and having a colorful cast of characters as well as having a great score?

I don't know... it sort of needs something a bit extra before I am willing to dub it with the title of "artistic game". Especially since Link is supposed to be the embodyment of courage and Zelda that of Wisdom.

Mind you of COURSE it isn't an Artsy game... those games tend to be... odd and have weird game design choices.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 06:45:12 am by Neonivek »
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MrWiggles

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2011, 06:47:02 am »

Anyhow Videogames and Movies are still in transition because the audiance STILL isn't bored of the same old just yet.

It is why I stopped harping on Koei. YES they do almost nothing but release the same games with slight alterations... But that is EXACTLY what their fans want.

Also the list has many old IPs. (Though I consider Darkspore to be a new IP... It is pretty much ENTIRELY unrelated to Spore... It is just coasting off the original's popularity for a boost)

That goes into a discussion what is and isnt new IP. Like, I consider the reboot of Bionic Commando, a new IP. Though I didn't list it. I also consider Duke Nukem Forever, a new IP as well. I consider it a new IP, or like a new IP, in that it doesnt have the guaranteed audienceship. Its also why I didnt list any movie games on the list. Technically each movie game, is a new video game IP, but it has a preinstalled auidenceship. Though some of them, could totally spawn into its own franchise. Like the two matrix matrix games could have spawned their own franchise, if any of them did well. And, Pitch Black games, have done well, that could go onto its own franchise.
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micelus

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2011, 06:54:05 am »

Its a matter of opinion Dakorma; some people like their eggs fried, others scrambled, and then some people don't like eating eggs at all. Same with video games. You simply can't force people to think, "this is better than what you currently play, so play it", as each game has a particular audience that like the features of a game. Not everyone appreciates Planescape and not everyone likes COD...nor will many people even consider touching DF.

As for lack of IPs, some people enjoy certain aspects of a game universe or its mechanics. I like the Elder Scrolls for the deep lore and exploration of a fantasy world. Not many games like that.

The question has probably been already answered in a similar vein, just adding my 2 cents.
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Flying Carcass

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2011, 07:39:38 am »

In regards to the notion that being artistic entails being a new IP...
Picasso, you already did blue. Try some other colors for a change!



To me, video games become an art form when they have an appealing aesthetic, great soundtrack, good gameplay, and/or capture my imagination enough let me forget reality for a little while.

I'd consider Gears of War to be an artistic game; the aesthetics, sound effects, music, story, and even the feel of the gameplay sold the impression that the player was fighting through a dark, desperate, and brutal world where victories were measured in yards. I don't think it was any coincidence that one of the supporting characters was a former football player.
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justinlee999

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2011, 08:22:31 am »

Its a matter of opinion Dakorma; some people like their eggs fried, others scrambled, and then some people don't like eating eggs at all. Same with video games. You simply can't force people to think, "this is better than what you currently play, so play it", as each game has a particular audience that like the features of a game. Not everyone appreciates Planescape and not everyone likes COD...nor will many people even consider touching DF.

As for lack of IPs, some people enjoy certain aspects of a game universe or its mechanics. I like the Elder Scrolls for the deep lore and exploration of a fantasy world. Not many games like that.

The question has probably been already answered in a similar vein, just adding my 2 cents.
I like eating my eggs hard boiled, your point is invalid.
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darkrider2

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2011, 08:48:23 am »

I tend to think a game is art when it creates a new gameplay mechanic or uses it in a different/interesting way.

But that's me, I tend to delve into a games mechanics first thing, if I wasn't like that I couldn't have stayed with dwarf fortress this long.

And it doesn't have to be a brand new IP, geez, Red Faction Guerrilla was way better than its entire series combined and introduced a shiny new destruction engine, despite being the third in the series.

One last thing, games can be art, that doesn't mean they have to be to be good. There's art and then there's entertainment, and I like both equally.
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dogstile

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2011, 09:01:51 am »

Isn't the whole reason good quality art is good is because it comes around rarely?

That being said, I never really thought games were art, the games are art crowd started pissing me off once they started banging on every other game for not being artistic. Fuck that, not every game needs to be artistic and not every game needs to push the medium forward. If a game is fun and I enjoy playing it, it has succeeded as a game.
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