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Author Topic: So why are we an artform again?  (Read 7352 times)

Dakorma

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So why are we an artform again?
« on: December 25, 2011, 01:05:35 am »

Let's look at major releases for games this Christmas season.

Fallout The Elder Morroblivion Crisis 2(The Elder Scrolls 5)

Saint Row, Saint Rosier.(Saint Row the 3rd)

Call of Modern Battlefield Shooter Infinity(Modern Warfare 3 and Battlefield 3)

Batman, Batman 2 Batman Boogaloo(Arkham City)

Serious Sam 3

Zelda, the same game for the 12th time.

Mario, this is even older than the franchise above it

Dark Souls, the successor to Demon Souls

Assassins Creed: Revelations, this game does the movie sequel title for itself so I don't really have to bother.


Uncharted 3, Drakes Deception,

The Let's Remake this Movie, Movie, Halo Anniversary

The Bigger Better Badder With More People Sequel, SW:TOR

Gears of War 3, The best walls of all.

The Let's Make a Prequel, sequel, Deus Ex HR

But we lack our real new IPs, like for the movies who have, Warhorse, or Hugo, or the Sitter, or the Immortals, or Real Steel, or We Bought A Zoo.

You got all kinds of big budget sequels being made in that artform, but you also have these big budget new IPs getting made, that really stand out. Especially in the stark lack of it our medium.

I mean this year we had what in terms of new IPs in big budget games, RAGE and LA Noire, maybe Bulletstorm if you call it big budget?

Last year we had what, Heavy Rain and Singularity?

Our medium is staid and stagnant in the mainstream from what I can tell. And we a purchasers don't seem to be doing anything about it, this is just a note, I haven't seen anything truly creative out of the games industry all year, and it's really starting to piss me off.
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Luke_Prowler

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2011, 01:16:15 am »

Hey, dont rag on Arkham City. That game is actually good.

Honestly the truth is that something considered art does not mean it's good. Even then, you ignored a vast, VAST number of games that came out this year
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 01:29:46 am by Luke_Prowler »
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Trapezohedron

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2011, 01:22:19 am »

Well, for one, I'm pretty sure that the lack of new IPs are directly related to us being a niche group, when compared to the movie-watching folk. Many companies will not want to risk losses, so they'll go and make new sequels using the tried-and-tested formulas that they made for the first game, and expand upon it slightly.

The movie industry has less restrictions on these things; all they need is a plot, punch some tried-and-tested tropes in, use convincing (human, usually), yet low cost actors in the cast, and greenlight the project. They don't need to make passable game mechanics, and sometimes, visually appealing effects. Not to mention that they have a larger audience overall, so they gain more cash and they can use them to make better movies and sequels to movies.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 01:24:24 am by New Guy »
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Putnam

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2011, 01:22:36 am »

The recent economic problems have caused a kind of creative stagnation in both the film and video game business due to companies (not wanting to risk something new and exciting being a flop) sticking with things they know will make money. This caused the death of Guitar Hero, the current state of Rocksmith, the constant sequel shoveling of Call of Duty, all the Transformers sequels...

it's damn sad.

MrWiggles

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 01:24:48 am »

Hey, guys!

All contemporary [insert OP qualifier here] video games are shit. Fuck me. Stop playing [insert OP qualifier here] video games! They're shitty, and OP demands that you justify their existence!

OP's opening our eyes, as we were once blind, but now bask into the true glory of unrivaled cynicism.

Man, OP, you were right, [insert OP qualifier here] video games are shit. Dont you remember [nostalgic blindness] were great? Boy do I!
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Jack A T

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 01:25:44 am »

Most of the movies you listed, Dakorma, aren't exactly new IPs either.
*War Horse: Based on a book.
*Hugo: Based on a book.
*We Bought a Zoo: Based on a book.

Yes, there isn't a huge amount of originality in many of the major, big-budget games.  The same applies to movies.  Unoriginal stuff gets made in every art form.
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Eagleon

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 01:41:08 am »

Not to mention that not every year can be a Renaissance. By definition, exceptional art is exceptional, you only get it occasionally because it's difficult to produce, otherwise everything would be spirographs. If you don't like what's coming out now, that's fine, just don't act like you never will. You liked some games at some point, or you wouldn't be a gamer and you wouldn't care about this, so just do something else or stick with what you know until something new happens. That or throw the proverbial gauntlet down and make it yourself :P
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Biag

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2011, 01:48:37 am »

Well, for one, I'm pretty sure that the lack of new IPs are directly related to us being a niche group, when compared to the movie-watching folk. Many companies will not want to risk losses, so they'll go and make new sequels using the tried-and-tested formulas that they made for the first game, and expand upon it slightly.

The movie industry has less restrictions on these things; all they need is a plot, punch some tried-and-tested tropes in, use convincing (human, usually), yet low cost actors in the cast, and greenlight the project. They don't need to make passable game mechanics, and sometimes, visually appealing effects. Not to mention that they have a larger audience overall, so they gain more cash and they can use them to make better movies and sequels to movies.

Not to mention that the games industry has a lot more leeway when sequels are involved. Most movie franchises don't tend to last beyond trilogies, but in the games industry you have Ultima VII, Final Fantasy XIII (or whatever it's on now), Grand Theft Auto 5, and so forth.

Also not to mention that it's not the IP that makes a game original or fun or interesting or worthy of artistic recognition. Sure, RAGE is a new IP, but isn't it really something we've seen a hundred times before? Compare to Batman: Arkham Asylum; Batman is an IP that's old as shit but Arkham Asylum was innovating all over the place. Dwarf Fortress is intended to be a "stock fantasy world generator", but it's the best game I've ever played in artistic terms.

And as a side note:

The recent economic problems have caused a kind of creative stagnation in both the film and video game business due to companies (not wanting to risk something new and exciting being a flop) sticking with things they know will make money. This caused the death of Guitar Hero, the current state of Rocksmith, the constant sequel shoveling of Call of Duty, all the Transformers sequels...

Corporations are never going to choose a new, risky venture that won't make as much money over continuing an existing venture that is almost certain to pull in hundreds of millions of dollars. The people who propose and greenlight game projects are generally executives- businessmen- who care much more about the continued existence of their company than the development of gaming as an artistic medium. That's why the indie scene is such a great thing.
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Criptfeind

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2011, 01:50:09 am »

What is your definition of art anyway? By mine Video Games are not suppose to be art. They are suppose to be games. They are suppose to be fun. That can be art, but it does not have to be. And seriously, saying things are bad or "not artistic" because they are not the first in that line? How does that work? Most things, even art, are derivative.

Games=!Art
Movies=!Art
God damn fucking Art=!Art
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MrWiggles

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2011, 02:19:30 am »

Here is a conservative list of new IP, from a list on Wikipedia. I know it doesnt cover all the release on Xbox Arcade of Wii Arcade or PSN. It also doesnt cover any games made for the smartphone platform.

Mindjack
Earthrise
Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together
Knights Contract
Cities in Motion
Gods Eater Burst
Homefront
The 3rd Birthday
Darkspore
Outland
The First Templar
Shadows of the Damned
Earth Defense Force: Insect Armageddon
Catherine
From Dust
El Shaddai: Ascension of the Metatron
Achron
Bodycount
Gatling Gears
Dead Island
Dawn of Fantasy
Rise of Nightmares
Nuclear Dawn
Dark Souls
Orcs Must Die!
Payday: The Heist
Afterfall: InSanity

Now, the franchise do totally out numbers the ones I've mange to find in a concentrated list, but its not like IP were not released this year.
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Dakorma

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 02:26:58 am »

Hey, guys!

All contemporary [insert OP qualifier here] video games are shit. Fuck me. Stop playing [insert OP qualifier here] video games! They're shitty, and OP demands that you justify their existence!

OP's opening our eyes, as we were once blind, but now bask into the true glory of unrivaled cynicism.

Man, OP, you were right, [insert OP qualifier here] video games are shit. Dont you remember [nostalgic blindness] were great? Boy do I!

Well let's see, Arkham City, it's like Arkham Asylum, but with spiderman 2 crossed in.

Let's see, Skyrim, it's like Oblivion but smaller and buggier, and less creatively interesting or memorable.

Let's see, Battlefield 3, it's exactly like battlefield 1 and 2.

Saint's Row 3, it's exactly like Saints Row 2 but smaller and more pretty.

Well let's see, Fallout, it's not exactly like Wasteland or the games that came before it.

Well let's see, Baldurs Gate, it's not EXACTLY FUCKING THE SAME AS TO BE INDISTINGUISHABLE from the RPGs that came before it.

Planescape Torment you can tell it's different from Baldurs Gate.


Let's look at System Shock 2 and Deus Ex, they aren't the same as each other, you could tell the difference right off just from watching casual play. Compare that to the current twins of the FPS genre, Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 3. Yes one is broader with larger levels, but just from the screenshots and aimless videos I've watched, bar vehicle mechanics, they are basically the same Iron Sights and get shot you die shooters with roughly the same environments.


Gaming as a medium is stagnant, the only true innovation is not coming from larger development houses anymore, but from the indies, games like Bastion or Bulletstorm, and even then those are simply old skool charm being made in a new way.

By the way, I'm 19, my first major console was a PS2, I wasn't able to play games on the PC until 05, I can't really be nostalgic for games I never really played in my youth. Coming back and playing games people recommend to me now, on forums, things like Planescape Torment, Fallout 1/2, Stonekeep, Ultima Underworld, Ultima 4-7, THEY ARE LEGITIMATELY BETTER than anything released in the last 6 fucking god awful years.

Addressing a few more claims before I end up frothing myself into a fervor that only comes once a year.

Those movies are still new to their medium, and not simply sequels.

Let's add in last year and the year before for good measure in terms of new IP.

In 2010 we had for mainstream games,

Singularity, RDR, and Heavy Rain. 3

In 09 we had, Dragon Age Origins(a bioware game so the new IP was in the world building, not the story), Arkham Asylum(batman), Borderlands(Genuinely Good), Brutal Legend(Genuinely good), Infamous(never played) and Prototype(fun as a time sink but nothing special). 5

For funsies, in 08 we had, Dead Space(a terribad horror game that failed at being scary so much is crossed into humor for me), Too Human(Supposedly Horrible, didn't play), Spore, No More Heroes, and the force unleashed(Star Wars), and Mirrors Edge(Good Premise shoddy execution) 6 as far as I can recall, mass effect may have been this year or the year before.

Let's compare this to 2002, Neverwinter Nights, Animal Crossing, SOCOM, Battlefield 1942, Splinter Cell, Rachet and Clank, Jak and Daxter, Eternal Darkness, Dark Chronicle, .hack, La Pucelle: Tactics, Age of Mythology, Hearts of Iron, Ragnarok Online, so in ONE YEAR there was more than the last 3 combined, do you get what I'm saying by crippling lack of new IP. Note that these are all games I CAN RECALL MAGAZINES TALKING ABOUT AND FEATURING GRANDLY. That number of new IP remains about the same as you go down the line after 2002.

Honestly I've probably missed a few new IPs in those years. Please enlighten me if I have.

Also, as far as Arkham Asylum goes, it's a fairly standard Metriodvania, just in 3d and with batman, and that somehow makes it innovative how? To address complaints, it's a decent game sure, but it's got a 2 button combat system, forced stealth sections that boil down to hop around gargoyles slowly picking the stupid mooks off until one remains who you beat upside the arms and shoulders and leave to die of a concussion, boss fights that boil down to dodge, hit with batarang and dodge, then beat upside the head and shoulders and leave to die of a concussion, and a large amount of exploration is based on backtracking after you get power ups.

Lets compare that to a truly great game, Planescape Torment, it realized that Infinity Engine combat sucks if you don't balance the encounters perfectly, so it chose to basically make almost all of the combat avoidable, and to focus primarily on world building, character building, and story building, and in that it's a fantastic game. The story is original, fun, and engaging, and if you realize that's what it was focusing on, then it's a completely great game, if you take it's gameplay as being everything else, it's a pretty, but kind of terrible game. Whats more again focusing on what it focused on, it remains great even in successive playthroughs. Arkham Asylum's successive playthroughs end up nagging me with the issues I noticed the first time I played, and that stops me playing about a quarter of the way in.


Also Mr.Wiggles,

Darkspore is based on the spore gameseries.

El Shaddai, is awesome and I completely forgot about it.

Catherine is also awesome, really wish I owned a PS2

Dark Souls is the sequel to Demons Souls.

EDF is also a sequel to the EDF series.


But other than those, which of them have actually been focused on majorly in the media?
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Criptfeind

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 02:35:26 am »

I'm sorry.

But. Did you just say that Arkham Asylum sucks because it's mechanics are repetitive and familiar, then compare it to Planescape by saying it's mechanics suck but that did not matter because of story telling?

Seriously? How can you do this? At any rate, what is even your issue here? That fun games are being remade? That people refuse to only use a IP once?
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penguinofhonor

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2011, 02:39:26 am »

What do you define as an artistic game? One that conveys a story? One that delivers a unique experience? A deep, meaningful experience?  One that is unique mechanically? One that's not mainstream? One that's a new IP? One that's fun? Immersive?

For instance, Skyward Sword. I mean, you say it yourself. That IP is old as shit, and it was anything but indie. But it drew me in - it did things with a controller I never knew a controller could do (insert wii penis joke here). It had beautiful graphics and a fantastic art style. It was anything but the same game for the twelfth time. I haven't played any other WiiMotionPlus game, but to me it was the most mechanically unique game I've played and one of the most immersive.

And to say it was the same game for the twelfth time is an outright lie. That'd almost be like saying the Harry Potter book is the same as the movie. A bit more similar than that, but I can't think of anything that's a better example. It's the same story put in a different medium - the mechanical differences (and the ways they were used, constantly surprising me with new innovations) made this from a boring rehash to an entirely different experience.

But no, bro. Ancient IP, no innovation allowed.
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Enzo

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 02:41:59 am »

At any rate, what is even your issue here? That fun games are being remade? That people refuse to only use a IP once?

I believe it's that no one understands TRUE ART like he does, and we are all plebian swine. Although I'll be honest, I couldn't do much more than skim concentrated nerdrage of that caliber.

Just because the mainstream isn't innovative doesn't mean a medium is incapable of being an artform. Look at popular movies and music. Are movies and music not art? Publishers always shy away from innovation because it's not a guaranteed seller, and their job is to make money. This is not like a new groundbreaking idea or anything.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 02:44:35 am by kinseti »
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Putnam

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Re: So why are we an artform again?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2011, 02:53:59 am »

Here is a conservative list of new IP, from a list on Wikipedia. I know it doesnt cover all the release on Xbox Arcade of Wii Arcade or PSN. It also doesnt cover any games made for the smartphone platform.

Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together
Darkspore
Dark Souls

Now, the franchise do totally out numbers the ones I've mange to find in a concentrated list, but its not like IP were not released this year.

The ones I have singled out from your list are ones that I know not to be new IP.
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