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Author Topic: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult  (Read 6609 times)

orrey

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2011, 11:26:05 am »

I dont really feel like decay is a good direction, as it ends up adding a lot of arbitrary repetition, once a fortress gets large enough. Instead, focus on exploring the various industries which aren't really optimal right now, and be required to be more proactive about battles and seiges (to protect caravans) rather than hiding behind traps. For example:

Increase the severity of negative thoughts.  For example, if a dwarf eats and drinks only plump helmets and dwarven wine, they tantrum much more easily. At the same time, make it so positive thoughts like a dining in a legendary dining room are less beneficial, given how easy some of them are to set up.

If you can manage to fix dwarves picking up clothing, make naked dwarves suffer severe negative thoughts.

Decrease the amount of migrants that come, each life should be a lot more valuable. A wave should reach 7 or 8 at most.

Instead of a functioning world economy, a simple way to make trading more 'difficult' would be to have trade goods suffer a decrease in value the more of the same material/type you offer. Like, 1 cloth shirt, 1 craft, and 1 stone craft should equate to 10 stone crafts or so, or 5 microcline and 5 granite crafts is worth more than 10 granite crafts, etc.

Traders ask for a yearly tribute to the mountainhome. If you fail to fulfill it, they'll only offer basic goods (same as if you deny the liason a trade agreement currently). If you ignore it for long enough, you become hostile to your parent civilization.





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rephikul

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 12:28:38 pm »

I dont really feel like decay is a good direction, as it ends up adding a lot of arbitrary repetition, once a fortress gets large enough.
Sometimes it's still a great resource sink.

Instead, focus on exploring the various industries which aren't really optimal right now, and be required to be more proactive about battles and seiges (to protect caravans) rather than hiding behind traps.
I've been working on this. I've made some essential stuff trade-only, some other stuff must be imported from other civs to kickstart the related industry and made nobles mandatory for fort growth. All of these encourage trade.

Increase the severity of negative thoughts.
Already done. A little personality fix here, a little more tweaks there...

At the same time, make it so positive thoughts like a dining in a legendary dining room are less beneficial
I cant modify the amount of art appreciation, I simply made it harder to get legendary dining rooms.

If you can manage to fix dwarves picking up clothing, make naked dwarves suffer severe negative thoughts.
I fixed clothes claim, but cannot do anything with naked dwarves. Half done.

The rest of your post I need to wait for Toady to do the prep work. But it's amazing how we see things in quite similar ways.
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Shmo

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 12:50:30 pm »

More nobles, definitely. But not just useless layabouts - nobles' involvement should become necessary as the scale and complexity of the fort grows, something akin to the Arsenal Dwarf of yore. For instance, the bookkeeper might need to be promoted, requirements, mandates and all as the number of goods to keep track of/population increases. The chief medical dwarf, too, might require more as the burden on his staff increases.

Much like in real life, the value of good thoughts should be diluted by how many dwarves share the thought, as well as by how frequently that thought is had. For instance you won't really be ecstatic about dining in a legendary hall if you've dined there alongside everyone else for the past year. You might, however, be upset should that situation change... This kind of happiness attenuation and adaptation mechanic might make transient good thoughts - like eating a good meal - more important to have. It will also bring strategy into increasing happiness. Laying it all on at once would no longer be a good idea as dwarves will get used to luxury. Rather, some boons like a caged exotic animal or the waterfall should be reserved for times of crisis, as their novelty will serve to increase their effectiveness.

Negative thoughts, on the other hand, should be made sharper by their uniqueness. If Urist is the only dwarf in the entire fort who has to sleep in the grass, he'll be much more upset than if everyone sleeps in the grass (though dwarves who do it often, like hunters, should get used to it). Grudges should engender (more) skewed jealousy/schadenfreude mechanics where a very good thought for a grudge causes a very bad thought for the holder, whilst a very bad thought for the grudge only causes a mild (depending on personality, of course) good thought for the holder.

In general requiring more complexity and introducing more room for fatal mistakes and cataclysmic confluences of bad luck (preferably noble-induced) as the fort grows should be a guiding principle.

For instance, to keep dwarves happy at a large population you might need to brew booze of a high quality (yes, booze quality! why hasn't anyone thought of this before?!), which might itself require a special still that consumes fuel and needs to be built over a water source.

Temperature effects could be leveraged to a greater extent (FPS beware), such a needing heating even underground in cold winter, or requiring cooling of large stockpiles of food.

Air quality and ventilation are big things that could need to be managed, especially deep underground.

Ingestion syndromes mean large-scale food poisoning with mould unless special measures are taken such as postprocessing - marination in glass jars, salting, etc. No more selling mass amounts of unpreserved food "We will not be able to eat this much food before it goes bad!"

More chronic diseases - diabetes, asthma/potter's rot, lead poisoning - that afflict dwarves based on long-term activity (or lack thereof).

Industrial accidents, more likely to affect novices - "Urist McDabblingFurnaceOp has had a terrible accident!" (his right arm's fat is gone, his right arm is oozing ...'s dwarf blood).

Reintroduce sparring injuries, nerf/dangerize (totally real word) danger rooms.

More involved enemy sieger behaviours - sieges shouldn't be supersized ambushes. Even short of enemy digging, enemies should be able to scorch the ground, dump filth/poisons where the entrances should be, etc. This combined with making underground farming/farming in general more difficult - need phosphorus source, nitrates source, etc., for sustained farming. No farming should be sustainable indefinitely without access to the surface.

I had some coherent ideas in mind but they degenerated into a list of mad ramblings, as you can see. Oh well.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 12:55:15 pm by Shmo »
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Jerg

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 02:08:50 pm »

Needs more building destroyers.

Specifically:

1) High damage AOE (area of effect) building/army destroying units, like Goblin Suicide Bomber / Demolitionist / any other similar name. They move very slowly and detonation occurs when they die / commit suicide, and will have a chance to destroy any tile in a 2x2x2 3D radius; forces much more vigilant use of marksdwarves.

2) Tunnelers, like Goblin Tunneler / Digger / Burrower / etc. They dig stairs down and try to tunnel passages into your fortress. They cannot dig through constructed floor/walls or smoothed floor/walls, but everything else is fair game. If they can't break through they might ask a Goblin Bomber to suicide and open a passage.

3) Huge Siege monsters. They are very resistant to weapon traps, and are too big for cage traps. Their function is to bash and break apart traps (weapons/cages/mechanisms all "pop out"), allowing safe passage for goblins behind them.

4) Goblin Catapults. Self explanatory, when collides with a wall (constructed or not), has a chance to break that wall tile. Better material are more resistant (e.g. adamantine walls will almost never break).
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Drawde

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 03:59:55 pm »

yes, booze quality! why hasn't anyone thought of this before?!
It already exists.  It just doesn't show up on the item.

It's also part of why you can't just fill a barrel from several sources of the same alcohol.  Each specific source has it's own flags, such as quality, that prevent it from being added to anything without all the same flags.  So the ability to add them together simply isn't in the game.

I believe that's why bolts have such problems with being combined into one stack.  Maker is one such flag, for keeping track of who gets the bad thought when the bolt is taken off the map or destroyed.
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Uristocrat

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 05:40:32 pm »

Someone mentioned having goblins mounted on giant bats in a different thread a while back.  Flying enemies should be interesting and that should be very reasonable in terms of modding and theme.
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Kofthefens

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 07:45:56 pm »

More nobles, definitely. But not just useless layabouts - nobles' involvement should become necessary as the scale and complexity of the fort grows, something akin to the Arsenal Dwarf of yore. For instance, the bookkeeper might need to be promoted, requirements, mandates and all as the number of goods to keep track of/population increases. The chief medical dwarf, too, might require more as the burden on his staff increases.

Yes. Have a bookkeeper, then a secretary for every 25 dwarves or so. Also, perfect accuracy should be MUCH harder to get.
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rephikul

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2011, 08:42:56 pm »

More nobles, definitely. But not just useless layabouts - nobles' involvement should become necessary as the scale and complexity of the fort grows, something akin to the Arsenal Dwarf of yore.
My current implementation of the noble thing is like this, how does it sound:
+ Sheriff and captain of the guard removed. Exp leaders now enforce law and can lead a squad.
+ Dwarves generally hate every single nobles. Talking with one generate bad thought.
+ 1 mandate nobles: military captains & champions
+ 3 mandate nobles:  Chief medic & broker
+ 5 mandate nobles: Military leader

My intention is with this setup, a small fortress only have to deal with a non-mandating noble and can have a small army to fend off kobolds. However, as soon as trading and ambushing become a concern the amount of nobles and demands increase dramatically. Superdwarf training fortresses have it worst with dozens of cocky champions throwing mandates around. As with increase in noble, so is laydwarves's hatred toward them and the fort has to implement lots more happy thought generating features to offset.
I once had a markdwarf who got angry because he was forced to carry a woodcutter home after a non-robot unicorn attack. He scheduled a meeting with the leader+broker+bookeeper+manager, got even angrier and punched the leader in the face. Later on the leader had one of his mandate (make 3 silver items) violated, sentenced this same markdwarf and personally carried out his sentence: punching. I think there was some conflicts of interest...



1) High damage AOE (area of effect) building/army destroying units, like Goblin Suicide Bomber / Demolitionist / any other similar name. They move very slowly and detonation occurs when they die / commit suicide, and will have a chance to destroy any tile in a 2x2x2 3D radius; forces much more vigilant use of marksdwarves.
Building destroying AOE cannot yet be implemented but I think fortress defense mod has army destroying AOE. Good idea.



Someone mentioned having goblins mounted on giant bats in a different thread a while back.  Flying enemies should be interesting and that should be very reasonable in terms of modding and theme.
Flying enemies were already done in fortress defense mod.
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MAurelius

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2011, 09:11:07 pm »

I was having murderous thoughts about all of you for trying to make the game harder (before I saw it was for a mod of course and not like an open letter to Toady) until I saw this:

"High damage AOE (area of effect) building/army destroying units, like Goblin Suicide Bomber "

Yes, please. And as they do it they can scream out "For the glory of (whatever god that goblin civilization worships)!" Epic.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2011, 10:42:59 pm »

Nerf war dogs to the point where they're almost completely useless in combat.
Oh wait.

Increase item complexity to more closely approximate real-world composition. For example, if you hand your Carpenter a log, he will not build you a Bed . . . he will build you a bed frame, or at best a Bench. Only after you compile a large rope reed fiber bag filled with cave wheat stalks (mattress), at least 2 units of pig tail cloth (blanket), a cave spider silk bag filled with duck/goose feathers (pillow) and [optional] at least 1 unit of cave spider silk cloth (sheets)--then, at that point, you will have a Bed.
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darkflagrance

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 03:41:43 am »

I'd attempted to fix some of these problems via modding, but in the end many things turned out to be futile. Neither goblins nor any other race will wear heavy armor even if it is the only armor given to them. Winged enemies freeze on the side of the map, which tends to leave their sieges somewhat...wanting.

Nothing that masses of bloodthirsty cyclopes mounted on jabberers can't fix, but it makes me hope that the military arc gains attention reeeeaaaal soon...
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Loud Whispers

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 10:58:40 am »

Subterranean sentient good evil Dwarves. Battle for the fourth wall.

rephikul

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2011, 08:03:03 pm »

Subterranean sentient good evil Dwarves. Battle for the fourth wall.
Please elaborate. I dont quite get what you mean. On a side note, subterranean civs are all stupid and I'm not sure if that can be changed/improved.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2011, 08:26:45 pm »

Subterranean sentient good evil Dwarves. Battle for the fourth wall.
Please elaborate. I dont quite get what you mean. On a side note, subterranean civs are all stupid and I'm not sure if that can be changed/improved.

What could be more difficult in fortress mode then finding an entire hostile Dwarven civ beneath your fort? Screw HFS, horrifying drunken screams echo from the fort below.

rephikul

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Re: What do you want implemented to make fortress mode more difficult
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2011, 09:51:56 am »

Ingestion syndromes... chronic diseases... Industrial accidents
ALL of these can be implemented now. But unfortunately, it'd only work in games with temperature enabled. I personally find temperature too much of a hassle to toy with considering the hit in FPS so I have not implemented these. I found it out the hard way when I tried to make a reaction where a dwarf would kill himself in exchange for some equipments for the fort (help in a pinch).

Some of my own ideas:
 + Make staying alive an absolute hell by greatly reduce the amount of food gathered from plant gathering, farming and hunting as well as reduce food quality.
 + Make it much harder to gather wealth by similarly reduce the rate of resource acquisition and resource processing, which mean many more dwarves have to do laywork to keep a forge running. As a side bonus, this'd reduce the defensive capability since it take more time to field a proper defense.
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