Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Dwarven politics  (Read 1074 times)

Skullkid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Dwarven politics
« on: December 15, 2011, 03:47:48 pm »

Hello everybody. I've played this game for a year or so, and am quite fond of it. But I believe politics are quite at large ; this is a shame as it is a very interesting aspect of society ; even more of a small society. Maybe I'm just saying that because I study sociology, anthropology and politics, but hey, I think some of my suggestions will sound fun to some of you out here.

First of all, english is'nt my native language, so please excusing me wrong talks. Second of all, some of what I will write might seem like, as we call it in french, "masturbation intellectuelle". I believe it is quite easy to translate, so don't read if you've just spent hours trying to figure out how to boil a family of kitten without burning or drowning the rest of your population.

I. Dwarven politics as they appear

1. The mountainhomes

As it appears, Dwarves come from "mountainhomes" ; unseen places, supposedly the heart of dwarven society, as all expeditions come from such places. Dwarves are possibly secessionists ; in such a cosmopolitan world, with races spread inequally all around the world, we can assume that all dwarves came from the same place at first, from Urist & Eve or some "Big Fun Bang". By secessionist, I mean that there has had to be a "Mother mountainhome" with all of the dwarves living there together at that time. Outside of the mountainhomes is too dangereous for a rogue dwarf to go by himself, especially at a time close to the beginning of time ; we can assume that, such as the way new fortresses are created, expeditions of dwarves went out with support such as bodyguards, food and tools, to form new settlements elsewhere, maybe to find new resources for trade with other races or to find a new suitable place for the excess of population, because of environmental disasters, etc. They grew and prospered, but being sent out by mountainhomes, the latter giving them a lot to survive and giving away probably valuable elements (dwarves capable of founding a new place and of fighting the wilds) and resources, they had attachment and duty towards those mountainhomes. They seceded, perhaps diplomatically, perhaps with war, and proclaimed their own "nation".

So, what are the mountainhomes ? If we observe from the largest fortresses reported (and by large I mean filled with dwarves) they are autarkic underground caverns, ruled by a high noble, with an important metal industry. The concept of secession is interesting here. A fortress sent out to be built by seven dwarves acts as an economic outpost from its mountainhome, finding new resources, producing new industries. The liaison comes to mandate certain goods that can be needed back home, and if the resources are provided, the fortress will be deemed interesting enough to have a noble watch over its production and apply mountainhome law for further production. The nobles are an entrave to the fortress' way of life, and the overseer's vision of how things should go.

All in all, the mountainhome acts as a "mother fortress" which sends out enough to build a new fortress, at the cost of economic retribution. The new dwarven fortress works first as a local industry producing goods for elsewhere. If the king of the mountainhome eventually considers it a safe enough, comfortable enough place, considers it able to provide for itself and to trade efficiently, he will come to live there, cutting the liaison with the mountainhomes. There is the loophole : is the fortress a new mountainhome, or is it a private place for the king's pleasure ? Why can't the fortress secede and form its own civilization, launching new fortresses ?

2. Authority over the fortress and administration

As it appears, the authority over the life of the fortress' dwarves comes to the "overseer". It is difficult to know who the overseer is, but he surely one of the seven dwarves. He designates where to dig, what to build, and who should do what in terms of work. The authority over him, the nobles, elected by the local dwarves themselves, only have the authority to engage mandates and requirements, that the overseer must comply to. We cannot assume that the first noble to come to the fortress, the expedition leader, is the overseer, as the fortress manages itself as well if he dies. We can suppose that there is a chain of inheritance of tasks, and that when he dies, another dwarf, appointed as second in command, takes back the task of leading the dwarve. The authority of the overseer is undisputable, and even if it leads to doom, his will will still be done.

There appears to be a highly functional administration in dwarven society. There are to be 73 "jobs" that the dwarves can fill and that are more or less vital to the fortress, ranging from "lye making" to "suturing wounds". Any dwarf can be asked to perform any job, and will comply instantly. First, we can be amazed at the versatility of the dwarves ; even if he has absolutely no knowledge of the job, the dwarf will still perform it efficiently enough at first, and magnificiently after a few years of practice. A dwarf specialized in mining for example, will be able, though with some time, to forge a fully functional scrw pump, if the corresponding job is asked to him by the overseer. Second, we can be amazed at the speed and precision of administrative orders. In few seconds, a dwarf will know he has been asked to fill the role of a miner, will pick up a mining pick, and dig precisely where it has been asked. The reason of such marvel is unknown. The dwarves have bookkeepers, so we can assume they know  writing, therefore that administrative duties are officialised on paper to keep track of who is who and who does what ; still it would'nt justify the speed at which tasks are done. Maybe the overseer yells the new order at a close dwarf, who transmits it to the next, and so forth until the order has attained its destination.

We can conclude that an overseer, having absolute power over the fortress, with boundaries and demands being sent by nobles and being its only limits, works a perfect bureaucracy, though it is not known if said democracy is oral or if tracks are kept with documents. It is unknown whether or not dwarves have ID, but the overseer sure knows everything about anyone who lives in his fortress. We can add that he seems to be the only one doing the paperwork, apart from those given to the bookkeeper, who keeps tracks of goods.

3. Social cohesion and nobles

The dwarves work in perfect harmony. Each dwarf is totally submissive to the authority of the overseer, as long as certain conditions are filled : the overseer must provide for bed, food, dining rooms, and the dwarf must not suffer from tragedy. If these are not provided, the dwarf will "throw a tantrum" : go mad, and attack those who inhabit the fortress with him, until he is killed. As long as the law is concerned, fortress from a certain size ans so on will have a "hammerer", a dwarf who will dispense law by beating the lawbreakers to death, unless the fortress has a prison and the crime is petty, then he will be imprisoned for a certain amount of time, or if the prison is missing, a law dispenser will beat the guilty dwarf. The crimes are common throughout societies ; murder, assault, and so forth, as well as violating a ban imposed by a noble. Crime apart, dwarves will have no resentment if they work continuously (for example building doors) throughout their lives while other do nothing. It brings the question of retribution ; why a dwarf, with the same privileges (bed, food, etc) as another, will accept to carry tiring work throughout his life as the one who does nothing ? The answer may come from the fact that as long as work is concerned, the dwarf is no master of himself ; the dwarf is not lazy, he simply has'nt got any orders given to him by higher authorities. He will not resent from it to respect the cohesion of his society, knowing the value of it. The dwarves are'nt individualistic at all, and will work with all they've got to provide for the life of the fortress and well-being of others. Beside that, they can get acquainted with other dwarves, but will show no sign of favoritism whatsoever.There is no (well... for now : [31.25]) economy inside the society itself. A dwarf wanting an item will fetch it and declare it his property, unless the item has been forbidden. In no case will a dwarf eat or drink more than the vital needs, even with the food completely free of use by anyone. As for the equality among genders, it seems perfect, dwarves and dwarvesses working equally.

This brings the question of the nobles ; who are they ? Once a fortress has produced enough goods, the mountainhomes will tell the dwarves of said fortress to elect a noble. It is a strange behavior, as the noble becomes mostly a mandate-giver, other than being ocasional diplomats. He does not take his orders from the king, and is just a local form of superior authority. Therefore, nobles cannot be considered aristocracy ; they do not acquire their status by birth. They are not deputies, bringing their own desires and laws over the fortress. They are mostly an elected local authority, with few powers. They do not  pay dwarves for they workforce, or owe the king any monetary element. The dwarf society has nothing to do with feudalism.

So, how does the dwarven society work so great ? The deities and worships can be assumed to be folklore and culture, not being intrusive in the life of the society. The dwarven society is a labor society ; the dwarves work together towards the common good of themselves and their peers, therefore assuming part of the Platonic Republic ; a caste of overseers who know what to do, laborers to get done what needs to get done, the whole looking towards the common good. Only missing are the guardians who should protect the individuals from outsiders. This role is filled by dwarves picked as being military, while still assuming, most of the time, their other duties, keeping on with the logical submission to the overseer. The idea of a Platonic Republic is further enhanced by the fact that the dwarven society is totalitarian : no dwarf asks questions about the will of the overseer or the nobles, even when it leads to their death, as the dwarf assumes that it is all for the common greater good. Laws being trespassed, we can assume there is a written constitution, or at least an oral one, therefore the dwarven society is a Constitutional, platonician caste society ruled by a king (platonician englobing the totalitarian aspect).

3b. Afterthoughts:Dwarven "fortress-state"

The dwarves are closely related to industry. They produce enormous amounts of goods, all year long, and sell them to outsiders. However, the fortress is the sole holder of the goods. Or is it the overseer ?

The State of the dwarven system is unclear. The most probable being that there is no state, just a personal power (most probably the overseer) who, just as he orders all the workforce and the dwarves blindly obey him, seizes control of all the good for trade. The totalitarian asepct of the dwarven community is enhanced here : the state, concentrated on one person with absolute power, controls all of the workshops and production, decides what people are allowed and are'nt.

II. Dwarven politics as they should be for more FUN !

1 - Clarify the mountainhomes stuff ! What size are they ? How many individuals ? Does the fortress owe allegiance to them, or do they work conjointly, a mountainhome therefore being of only roughly 200 individuals (as the king comes near this level from what I have experienced) ?
2 - The monarchy and everything is great, but nobles should bring more clear benefits to the fortress, and not be elected. Or, their role as diplomats should be enhanced, or with the economic system being brought back, they should take taxes from the laborers as real nobles, holders of the produced goods.
3 - Perhaps something a little bit more complex than a "labor" society. The fact that the dwarves tantrum if they do not have what they want is perfectly implemented and rational. However, an angry dwarf should be able to question the authority of the overseer, and if they are numerous enough, putting presure on the overseer. Than, either repress it in blood, or accept to elect a new overseer (making the whole stuff a plebiscite republic) with consequences, such as, for example, the player not being able to order new constructions or jobs for a short period of time, while the new administration gets in place.

Well, I don't have much idea, the game is already really complex right now and adding a political dimension would just be one of theses aspects which are'nt mostly urgent or gameplay-wise, maybe just roleplay-wise... I wanted to do a little sociology on dwarves, and launch the subject of the dwarven society among DF fans. Debate !

PS : May be modified again later as I think of stuff, such as the "3b" part
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 05:57:02 pm by Skullkid »
Logged

King DZA

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ruler of all things ruleable
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 04:55:19 pm »

Sorry, I was distracted by the phrase 'masturbation intellectuelle'.

But really, this seems like it could be interesting. I'll keep an eye on this topic.

stabbymcstabstab

  • Bay Watcher
  • OW SNAP!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 07:08:17 pm »

Sorry to tell you but this planned please read the Dev log and please use the search bar next time.
Logged
Long Live Arst- United Forenia!
"Wanna be a better liberal? Go get shot in the fuckin' face."
Contemplate why we have a sociopathic necrophiliac RAPIST sadomasochist bipolar monster in our ranks, also find some cheese.

Skullkid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 02:44:23 am »

Well, you know... It was'nt only a suggestion, it was a sort of essay on the way dwarven society works. Maybe I should have put it somewhere else on the forums.
Logged

hermes

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 03:03:16 am »

Sorry, I was distracted by the phrase 'masturbation intellectuelle'.

What a great phrase!  I love French.  Can't speak it, but wish I could.  Well, I guess one could use that phrase anyway, hehe.

Skullkid, I like your thoughts on politics, I too cannot wait for that kind of thing to be in the game.  If you haven't already, take a look at the Army Arc goals.  A lot of what you are talking about will appear in that particular dev cycle, when leaders will play a much more important role in the game, since they and their personalities and their politics will be the driving force for a lot of conflicts.
Logged
We can only guess at the longing of the creator. Someone who would need to create one such as you. - A Computer
I've been working on this type of thing...

Skullkid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 07:48:04 am »

Yeah, I guess it matches what I would like to see. Though the other goal of my topic was to try and analyze rationally the stupid comportment of the dwarves through debate with other forum members. Looks like it flopped... Bah. I'll start another fortress.
Logged

hermes

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 08:29:02 am »

Though the other goal of my topic was to try and analyze rationally the stupid comportment of the dwarves through debate with other forum members. Looks like it flopped... Bah. I'll start another fortress.

Heh, you asked a lot of questions in the OP, but I am interested in this part in particular...

Quote
The idea of a Platonic Republic is further enhanced by the fact that the dwarven society is totalitarian : no dwarf asks questions about the will of the overseer or the nobles, even when it leads to their death, as the dwarf assumes that it is all for the common greater good. Laws being trespassed, we can assume there is a written constitution, or at least an oral one, therefore the dwarven society is a Constitutional, platonician caste society ruled by a king (platonician englobing the totalitarian aspect).

Been years since I read the Republic, and I'll I admit I don't remember much at all, but this is an interesting interpretation because I think most people have drawn analogies to a vague form of socialism when talking about Fortress mode.  I guess for me the standout feature of Plato's republic is the famous assertion of Stephen Dedalus that Plato would not have let him in the Republic because he is a poet and a free thinker.

Certainly dwarves in fantasy and DF have a reputation for being close minded and stubborn yet industrious, just the opposite of Dedalus, and I guess this would suit the Platonic republic.  But to bring it back to socialism, couldn't the same be said of, say, the ideal peon in Mao's China (which certainly did not want free thinkers)?  Would not the brutal justice system and arbitrary nobility also better fit the communist China (of yesteryear) analogy?  So my question is, playing devil's advocate, would it be fair to say that when it comes to DF the Platonic republic interpretation is a romantic one that implies far more harmony than actually occurs?   ???
Logged
We can only guess at the longing of the creator. Someone who would need to create one such as you. - A Computer
I've been working on this type of thing...

Skullkid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 09:01:52 am »

Well, it could be communist, being totalitarian (all the means of the society driven towards an ideology). But the fact is that communism as well as socialism suppose that the worker owns his workforce and the product of his work. This is clearly not the case : the state orders jobs and seizes control of the goods.

And I believe that the dwarven society works in sufficient harmony to be called Platonic Republicans, with feuds being really rare, don't you think ?
Logged

astaldaran

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 09:26:52 am »

I enjoyed this evaluation of dwarven society and I think it asks some good questions..not all of which do I think there are answers for (well Maybe Toady has ideas)

I know I keep saying this but I'm going to say it again..


I really think the political part of the game would be way more interesting if you were a dwarf & and overseer and you have to be concerned with staying in power as well as everything else. Search the forums for where this is discussed in more detail if you are interested.

See this thread where the politics / economic issue is discussed..

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=85534.msg2306087#msg2306087

there are others as well
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 09:32:56 am by astaldaran »
Logged

Skullkid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven politics
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2011, 10:11:45 am »

Wow, that's interesting. I just notices by playing the game again a little further that my concept of "secession" doesn't really work as the dwarves who create the new fortress are independent and then can be established as a colony... Hell. Time wasted.

And yes, I totally agree that the overseer should be personified as a dwarf ingame.
Logged