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[Zidana]

Lemmie preface this by saying that I've only had the game for about 3 months and that I've not experienced nearly everything there is to experience yet. I absolutely adore the game and basically have been playing nothing else since getting it, and I've even been having vague dreams about the Dwarf Fortress interface and mining.

Lemmie also say that this isn't so much a suggestion about a specific feature I'd like to see implemented, as a suggestion about a general aspect of what I perceive to be Toady's design philosophy.

The biggest problem I've had with the game so far is this: actions which produce desireable results also often produce waste, sometimes as a direct consequence, and sometimes as a byproduct. This waste can be disposed of, but only through tedious management tasks which require no skill or management, but just alot of time and repetitive button mashing and clicking. Sometimes these tasks can be automated via macros, and sometimes they cannot.

Now, I understand that waste management and disposal is one of the fundemental problems that humans have to deal with on a daily basis, on all levels of society. Our industries generate pollution, our consumption generates trash, and our very existance generates... uh... filth. Even the act of my eating this banana will generate an inedible peel which takes weeks to fully decompose. Waste is a fundemental aspect of life. That is, through performing a desireable action, we generate a consequence which is usually undesireable, and must be disposed of in some manner.

Lemmie explain what I mean by an example. Imagine, if you will, that you are playing Super Mario Bros. 3 (yes, I know it's a totally different genre and an apples-to-oranges comparison, but just humor me for a moment and you'll see where I'm going). Imagine that each time Mario grabbed a mushroom powerup, he also accumulated a little counter at the top of the screen called "Internally Encumbered" or something. Internally Encumbered has the effect of gradually slowing Mario's movement speed. The only way to remove Internally Encumbered is to finish a level, and then while on the map screen, hitting the down arrow and then A and B on the controller a bunch of times (let's say arbitrarily, 20 times for each Internally Encumbered count).

Now this seems like a pretty silly idea. It requires no skill to deal with Internally Encumbered, and it doesn't add anything to the gameplay. I defy anyone to tell me that it would be a good idea to implement in a Mario game, and that it would be fun (not Fun with a capital F, mind you) to have to simulate taking a squat by the roadside and getting rid of the... yea, you see where I'm going with this.

And yet, I find myself doing exactly what I've just described in Dwarf Fortress. Each time I slaughter a vile force of darkness, I find myself scrolling through pages and pages of clothing, hitting down, F, D, repeatedly, hundreds of times. Sometimes it takes more IRL time to actually manage the dumping of clothing than it takes to rally my military to slaughter the Gobbos. And it always takes more in-game time for my dwarves to crawl all over the map and collect the articles of the clothing and bring them to the atomsmasher than it takes for my dwarves to actually repel the invasion in the first place.

Now, I'm aware that alot of people have similar issues with the clothing. But it's not just the clothing issue I'm trying to point out here. It's a core design philosophy that finds its way into just about every aspect of the game. Take harvesting plants from cavern areas, if you will:

Like many players, I like to open the caverns as early as possible so that the upper levels of my fort get fertilized with mushroom tree spores. It prevents my being overdependant on aboveground trees and limits my lumberdwarves' exposure to the terror that is Honey Badgers (and Gobbos, but at this point I'm firmly convinced that Gobbos are both less intelligent and less dangerous than Honey Badgers). And periodically I like to sweep my fort clean by harvesting the cave plants in the upper levels to supplement my farms. However, this harvesting generates both useful plump helmets and useless dimple cups. Dimple cups are useless in every way other than for making blue dye. Now, if you want to have a blue clothing industry, that's all well and good. But from reading this forum, I gather that the vast majority of players don't bother with a clothing industry past making a bunch of shoes to prevent the dwarves from stepping in Frozen Forgotten Beast Extract. And if you don't have a blue clothing industry, dimple cups are nothing but garbage. They can't be cooked or brewed, and do nothing more than fill up barrels that take up room in stockpiles. Once again it's off to the stocks menu to hit down and d a few hundred times.

This is not a good design philosophy. Waste management and disposal has no business being in a game. It adds NOTHING to the gameplay, and in fact bogs it down in horrific tedium. It seems to me that Toady's design philosophy is to attempt to replicate waste management within Dwarf Fortress, and if done properly, it could possibly... maybe... have a chance? of adding something meaningful and worthwhile to the gameplay. But as it's currently implemented (yes, I know it's an Alpha) it's just a horrible mess.

Now, I've modded the game to deal with both these issues. Invaders no longer wear leather or cloth clothing (only metal), and Dimple Cups are now brewable into Dimple Beer (it'll turn your tongue (and the stuff you're Internally Encumbered with) blue!). And I gotta say, Toady is a genius and some kind of minor god for making the game so customizable and easy to mod. Yes, any of the issues with the waste management can be fixed with a few simple editation to the raws, with just a few hours of reading and experimentation with tags. But those issues are simply symptoms of the actual problem, which is that design philosophy that Toady seems to have concerning waste disposal. Modding to fix it is just slapping a giant cave spider silk cloth dressing on that pus-oozing wound without washing it out first with soap. Sure, the dwarf gets to leave the hospital and will even stumble along for a few seasons, but sooner or later he'll collapse dead on the floor in the middle of mining duty.

I'd like to repeat that I absolutely adore this game. To death. It is without a doubt the most complex and detailed game that I've ever seen. And the only reason I've criticized this issue as harshly as I have is because I love the game and want to see it succeed.

Anyone else's thoughts on this? Love the waste management system? Hate it? Think it's not necessarily a bad design philosophy, but just needs a different implementation (like the Economy, ha!)?

[10ebbor10]

Try D b D for mass dumping, as long as all your crap is on the same Z lvl it should be easy. (If you want to melt down the metal weapons, you can use D b (M i think no sure)
Hauling and farming are more like placeholders and will be changed some day.

[knutor]

In so much as I think some aspects of waste removal should and need very much to be automated, I don't want them ALL to be automated.  I like the looks of a bloody battlefield with its spent missiles, and items littered about.  It gives me a sense of history, and some sense of reality.  But, like you, I don't like how the game plays me for an idiot.

There is no need to send half my community out there after a fallen buddy, while the battle is still raging.  There is no need to have that toggle.  I challenge Toady to explain why his AI needs to be this way.  There is never any reason to enter harms way, unless your a soldier.  Never any reason.  Thus no need to have a toggled Order, to do such.

As for trash collection, I hope its all time considered when balancing out the AI civies with mine.  AI civies should be just as clean as the most clean player wants and needs to be.  I'd really like to think, my statues were placed in a tastefully arranged setting, and not next to some stinky x(sock)x.  But I'm afraid its all just flavor text, and not actual AI thoughts.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[EmperorJon]

As far as I can say, you've said "Waste management is a key real life issue. In Dwarf Fortress it's really tedious to deal with. Therefore... remove it." as opposed to improve. Sure, removing all clothing from invaders, making animals not be butchered with the meat you don't want, etc. is a GREAT idea.

Sorry if I've misunderstood.

[astaldaran]

Zidana,

That was a really thoughtful post and a good way to present the issue at hand.   You are very right though, the waste can take out to much of the game and doesn't always add to the simulation. 

I think one thing that will make this 100X better is when dwarfs can pick up multiple things at once..so if there are 20 dead gobos out there it probably won't take more than 40 trips to clean up if they are wearing heavy armor..and 20 or less if they aren't verses hundreds that now are required.

Do you think this would help mitigate much of this problem?


Something else that would help is more emulation...for basically forever...there have been specialized waste/trash/etc collectors.  Maybe DF needs the same, maybe you build wheel barrows and assign them to waste (they could also be used for other things) and then your specialized waste haulers deal with it.  There has also been discussions on things like sewers, septic systems, etc (ofcourse most of these discussions ask for more waste)

Something else that could be implemented is a stocks menu where you can say "Store up to 100 blue dimple cups" and then all demple cups above that number are treated as waste.  I think this would be tremendous..it means you would never have to deal with all that stuff the gobos dumped..if you have reached your set cap of gobo shoes..then whatever shoes are left are tossed.

I think it would also be great if waste could be put into chunks that were then labeled "waste" and could be burned..instead of charcoal even.


What do you think of these possible improvements? I agree with Knutor that I would hate to lose the simulation in order to make everything "nice."  I think the real issue is waste has has increased rapidly while at the same time the other side of the simulation, waste management, has not.

Maybe our goal should be to ask Toady to take care of these things faster than is currently on his plan.

[Mushroo]

A thoughtful post!

I think the issue is that you've decided "what kind of game you want to play" and are taking steps to achieve this non-mandatory ideal fortress state, and then complaining about the non-mandatory steps.

Specific examples of what I mean:

1. You've decided you want to play a game where invader clothing is hauled and atom-smashed. But the steps required to haul and atom-smash clothing are not fun for you.
Alternative: Don't atom-smash invader clothing, simply forbid it and leave it lying on the battlefield.

2. You've decided you want to play a game where dwarfs gather dimple cups and store them in barrels in stockpiles. But the steps required to gather and store dimple cups are not fun for you, and you don't plan to mill them or dye clothing.
Alternative: Don't make any stockpiles that accept dimple cups; they will wither and die.

In other words, my point, Dwarf Fortress is about "fun" not "winning" or "high score." There are no bonus points for neatly organizing goblin socks or stockpiling dimple cups, so simply don't do it if it's not Fun for you. If you want to have a messy, disorganized fort then do it!

[Zidana]

Try D b D for mass dumping, as long as all your crap is on the same Z lvl it should be easy. (If you want to melt down the metal weapons, you can use D b (M i think no sure)
Hauling and farming are more like placeholders and will be changed some day.

That doesn't quite work though when the crap that I want to dump is scattered among stuff I want to keep, or if there's single tiles containing stacks of stuff I want dumped intermingled with stuff I want kept. When the gobbo dies, assuming he's not had his limbs cut off, he's gonna drop his weapons and armor (keep, please!) on the same tile as his clothing. So a visit to the stocks menu for some down F D action is necessary at some point.

making animals not be butchered with the meat you don't want

Oh, that's another issue that I've had a problem with. Cartiledge, Feathers, Chitin? Modded those too. Oh ho.

I think one thing that will make this 100X better is when dwarfs can pick up multiple things at once..so if there are 20 dead gobos out there it probably won't take more than 40 trips to clean up if they are wearing heavy armor..and 20 or less if they aren't verses hundreds that now are required.

YES! DEFINITELY! Something like a 'volume' stat on items would certainly help things out, in addition to the mass. Or say, clothing could be folded up into 'stacks' of folded clothes which then could be carried all at once would be nice.

I think the issue is that you've decided "what kind of game you want to play" and are taking steps to achieve this non-mandatory ideal fortress state, and then complaining about the non-mandatory steps.

Specific examples of what I mean:

1. You've decided you want to play a game where invader clothing is hauled and atom-smashed. But the steps required to haul and atom-smash clothing are not fun for you.
Alternative: Don't atom-smash invader clothing, simply forbid it and leave it lying on the battlefield.

2. You've decided you want to play a game where dwarfs gather dimple cups and store them in barrels in stockpiles. But the steps required to gather and store dimple cups are not fun for you, and you don't plan to mill them or dye clothing.
Alternative: Don't make any stockpiles that accept dimple cups; they will wither and die.

In other words, my point, Dwarf Fortress is about "fun" not "winning" or "high score." There are no bonus points for neatly organizing goblin socks or stockpiling dimple cups, so simply don't do it if it's not Fun for you. If you want to have a messy, disorganized fort then do it!

No, the kind of game that I've decided I want to play is a game which is the most detailed and complex game ever which ALSO doesn't gradually reduce in FPS over the course of in-game years to the point of unplayability. In order to play such a game, I have to haul and atom-smash clothing/dimple cups/useless animal parts and the steps required to do so are not fun for me.

Question for you: Do you have a messy, disorganized fort? And if so, Why?

As for trash collection, I hope its all time considered when balancing out the AI civies with mine.  AI civies should be just as clean as the most clean player wants and needs to be.  I'd really like to think, my statues were placed in a tastefully arranged setting, and not next to some stinky x(sock)x.  But I'm afraid its all just flavor text, and not actual AI thoughts.

Strangely enough, I'm fine with the idea that certain dwarves would be messier than others. Kinda like how in the Sims there was a slider for cleanliness, and Sims that liked to be clean automatically did things like flush the toilet, wash the dishes, and take out the trash. And actually, the dwarven personality simulator isn't just flavor text in its current build. For instance, dwarves with the 'likes to help others' trait will get a happy thought from doing hospital work, and dwarves with the 'doesn't like to help others' trait will get an unhappy thought. More outgoing and friendly dwarves are more likely to be elected Mayor, and all that jazz.

[Mushroo]

No, the kind of game that I've decided I want to play is a game which is the most detailed and complex game ever which ALSO doesn't gradually reduce in FPS over the course of in-game years to the point of unplayability. In order to play such a game, I have to haul and atom-smash clothing/dimple cups/useless animal parts and the steps required to do so are not fun for me.

Question for you: Do you have a messy, disorganized fort? And if so, Why?

I use the (o)rders, (F)orbid screen to forbid death items, the goblins and their stuff lie on the ground and don't affect frame rate (because they are forbidden).

If my hall of traps or whatever gets clogged then I do a mass d, b, d.

If I need to (c)laim something (for example I have an emergency need for ammo) then I do so from z, stocks (not tediously going square by square). Easy peasy.

And I love textile industry so dimple cups are always welcome in my stockpiles.

[10ebbor10]

What I do is Dbd the whole siege and whitout unpausing, go to the stockscreen and unforbid the weapons/ armor, which is less problematic than Fd all the clothes.
Selectivily dumping items made of a certain material, certain type has been proposed( and will probably be added).

[Zidana]

I use the (o)rders, (F)orbid screen to forbid death items, the goblins and their stuff lie on the ground and don't affect frame rate (because they are forbidden)

Actually that's not true. Forbidden and hidden items still reduce frame rate. Unfortunately out of sight is not out of mind.

[knutor]

Cleanliness might be a good terminal condition.  Instead of slain bad guys.  Or a ratio to slain versus generated. 

Instead, if a quantity of x(items)x in a region is reached, termination is met.  When termination is met, the player has the option of continuing with a region wide wipe of the garbage, or terminate the fort, finished by the AI.  That might limit the chances of seeing the endgame, but like with most endgames, they really aren't worth seeing anyway, I'd imagine.

Having never seen the endgame, in DF, and still playing it, I can honestly say, its a trivial feature, in my love of the game.  However, that's a bit off topic.  But to reel it back in, I do agree with Zidana.  Better AI, could make for a better DF.  I really don't feel the many junk piles are doing the game any benefit. 

With the vast number of junk piles, its impossible to see which are generated by that one bed-bearded dwarf.  I can't see how, while quickly trying to design an underground empire, a player has the time, or inclination, to isolate that one bed-bearded dwarf, dropping his biscuits around the fort for the miasma clouds.  Now finding a ghost isn't nearly as bad as finding an unorganized dwarf.

Sincerely,
Knutor

edit.. sloopy -> unorganized

[Zidana]

With the vast number of junk piles, its impossible to see which are generated by that one bed-bearded dwarf.  I can't see how, while quickly trying to design an underground empire, a player has the time, or inclination, to isolate that one bed-bearded dwarf, dropping his biscuits around the fort for the miasma clouds.  Now finding a ghost isn't nearly as bad as finding an unorganized dwarf.

Maybe the dwarves that are inclined to cleanliness could clean up after the bed-bearded dwarf?

Much like real life.

[Footkerchief]

There's a recent and active Suggestions thread (posted a couple weeks ago and still on the front page) which basically covers the same topic: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=96952.0

[astaldaran]

[delete]

[GreatWyrmGold]

First off, d-b-d, no caps, to dump stuff. Second, trading clothes means you can spend your effort on other stuff. Third, you seriously want naked goblins to come steal your young dwarves? Fourth, there's a couple mods at least which remove/don't add clothing, and it's fairly easy. Fifth, DF goes for maximum realism, and sanity be damned!