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Author Topic: Regarding Embarking  (Read 2615 times)

i2amroy

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 09:36:23 pm »

I usually bring:

3 picks
1 axe
no anvil
default amounts of food/booze
50 of one useful seed (plump helmets for example)
default seeds
default thread/buckets/cloth/splints/crutches
2 cats
2 dogs

1 Trader/Official (2 points in appraiser, record keeper, negotiator, 3 in judge of intent, and 1 in intimidator)
1 Carpenter (5 in carpentry and 5 in wood cutting)
1 Crafter (5 in stonecrafting)
1 Mason (5 masonry, 3 engraving, 2 architecture)
2 Miner/Growers (5 in both mining and grower)
1 Brewer/Grower (5 in both brewing and grower)

Put all remaining points into anvil (if you have enough) or food/booze.

At embark I then make my trader into a 3rd miner, since he usually can get fairly well skilled on the soil around anyways, and then once I manage to get a bit of a fortress set up my crafter just makes stone crafts full time and I can pretty much buy whatever I want or need off of the first caravan.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:55:32 pm by i2amroy »
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highmax28

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 09:47:44 pm »

Thanks guys! I swear, I'll be writting like a embarker's handbook or something with this wealth of knowledge and reccomendations! :D
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Poindexterity

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2011, 10:33:10 pm »

1- 5 pt miner
2- 5 pt diagnostician with 5 spread in other doctory skills
3- 5 pt fighter 5 pt teacher
4- 5 pt shield user 5 pt teacher
5- 5 pt armor user 5 pt teacher
6- 5 pt dodger 5 pt teacher
7- 5 pt biter/striker/kicker/etc 5 pt teacher

no seeds, ill eat the plump helmets soon enough and get seeds from them. either that or scavenge for above ground seeds while waiting for miner to dig initial hole.
LOTS of food
LOTS of liquor
about 30 logs (I like fungiwood)
3 wool bags
a copper axe, spear, mace, hammer, sword, and pick.
2 female dogs and 2 males.
3 buckets
1 wool rope
iron anvil
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Nan

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2011, 10:48:11 pm »

I'm a shameless powergamer, I usually bring:

2 to 6 military dwaves (most often 4), Proficient in a weapon skill, and a secondary combat skill or teacher.
A Herbalist or Farmer (or both, on the same dwarf - usually I give him 1 to 5 levels in weaponsmith too for strange mood potential)

Other skills I consider desirable to bring include Mason(+Building Designer), Carpenter, Mechanic (as a secondary skill), Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Cook (as a secondary skill), Engraver.
As for miners, usually I embark with 1 dwarf determined to be a miner, or 2 if I'm going light on military dwarves. If I'm embarking to a mountainous biome these will be proficient miners, but if it's a biome with soil/clay I usually make them Fighters/Dodgers and let them train up mining in dirt, for legendary miners you don't want to meet in a dark mineshaft.

Obviously the exact skills depends on how many military I feel like bringing. Most the time civvy skills seem like kind of a waste and the only truly awesome investment, difficult to otherwise acquire at will, is Proficient weapon skill. Only farmer and/or herbalist seems nigh-essential (the boost to plant stack size is a massive help for my style), but Mason and Carpenter are certainly nice skills (I particularly like carpenter for woodland biomes, for masterwork wooden shields).

As for items:
1 pick
anvil
Enough iron ore and flux stone to produce a steel weapon and steel helmet for each military dwarf.
Enough copper and tin ore to produce bronze axes and picks, and bronze armor for the militia (at least gauntlets and boots)
Bituminous Coal if it is available, enough to produce coke for all the smelting and forging.
5 stones for workshops.
10-20 logs, much more if no coal is available and/or the embark has few trees.
15 leather (for cloaks, waterskins and bags)
1 male and 1 female dog.
2 Gypsum Plaster, 1 Lye.
A few spider silk thread, cloth

I regard buying single units of cheap edibles to get the free barrels to be an exploit and don't use it. What you will note is I don't embark with any food or drink at all. It's unnecessary. Herbalist + Boozecooking is outrageous for early food production, but even without boozecooking, just cooking the seeds will be enough to feed everyone until the military is ready to hunt big game. Or you could just slaughter the pack animals.

And as a little myth-buster, there's no need to spend embark points on "Appraiser". A dwarf who initiates trade with the dwarven caravan will immediately gain "Adequate" appraiser so there's absolutely no point in embarking with it.
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lcy03406

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 01:23:00 am »

2 miners, one with skills for broker, and another for bookkeeper and manager.
miners can be trained easily, but at the beginning we really need rooms and stones.
a farmer with a weapon skill.
a cook with a weapon skill.
they will make meals for eating and for trading in the first year. if more skilled migrants arrive, they can take the military careers or just farming and cooking until legendary.
3 novice ambusher with different combat skills, not necessarily marksdwarf. they will be a mason, a carpenter, or whatever no need of quality at the first couple of years, and become militia commander.
no gem cutter or craftdwarf, i sell roast food.

2 picks.
no axes. i will deconstruct the wagon, build a carpenter's workshop, and make wooden training axe, and then begin to cut down trees.
1 anvil. someone prefer not make any metal armor until the first caravan arrives, but i like anvil.
10 cave wheat seeds.
10 sweet pods.
10 helmet spawns. brewing takes time, and spawns are really cheap.
some plump helmets.
some milk. i can make cheese later.
malachite, cassiterite, bismuthinite, bituminous coal. or just bituminous coal.
2 war dogs.
2 cats.
2 dogs.

i always start my 'industry' by farming and cooking. once harvested cave wheat and syrup, a skilled cook can easily make meals worth 10000.
cheese is good for boozecooking(not so good as wheat, but better than regular meat and eggs) as it values 10. embark with 5 milk and 10 plump helmets (45points), and you will get a stack of 55 roast dwarven wine worth at least 55*(16+10)=1430, say, by a dabbling cook.
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NecroRebel

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 02:06:18 am »

malachite, cassiterite, bismuthinite, bituminous coal. or just bituminous coal.
You know that bismuth bronze is more expensive, point for point, than bronze is, right? You can only do bismuth bronze from bars, so you have to smelt the ores individually, while for making bronze you can just make it direct from the stones. Smelting 2 malachite, 1 cassiterite, 1 bismuthinite, making the b. bronze, and making 4 b. bronze items from it takes a total of 9 fuel, meaning a minimum of 4 bit. coal, which costs a total of 36 points, while smelting bronze directly from ore twice and then making 4 bronze items costs only 6 fuel, or a minimum of 3 bit. coal, for 30 points. Since the two metals have identical stats except for value, 4 items for 30 points is much better than 4 items for 36 points, especially given the extra 3 required reactions bismuth bronze takes.

6 points per 4 items isn't a lot, but it is some, and when you're bringing enough ores to make a couple dozen items (like if you want to start soldiers fully-armored), it adds up.
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lcy03406

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 02:13:50 am »

while for making bronze you can just make it direct from the stones.
Thank you! I thought bis. was cheaper, did not count the coal...
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Garath

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 02:26:39 am »

If i have a limited amount of points: I never take any miners, they'll learn fast enough especially if there is one or more soil layer
I dont take splints or crutches. Noone should get hurt, i dont have a doctor and they are very easy to make later on

I take extra booze, some dogs and cats, 2 turkey hens 1 gobbler. If i have about 102 pts left, an ewe and a ram. If possible, i take some extra picks so i can set more people to work at the start
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Iton Ibrukrithzam

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 02:30:02 am »

For dwarf skills, I usually let them train the easy ones like woodcutter, herbalist or miner on the job, though sometimes I give them a single level in it, so I can be lazy and not have to manually activate that skill.  Other than a placeholder level, I really only put points in things that are harder or more annoying to train.  This generally means Building Designer, Butcher, Tanner, Armorsmith and Weaponsmith.  A bookkeeper/manager/broker gets a level or two in Judge of Intent and Appraiser.

For items, I slash the starting list pretty hard.  If you take one thing from this post, let it be that you should never take plump helmets.  They cost 4 points, which is double what other food costs.  They're also very fast growing, so if you want plump helmets, just take some plump helmet spawn.  For food/booze, I take at least one of each booze(and like 100 dwarven rum, a drunk expedition is a happy expedition) and then I take one each of every type of meat that only costs 2 points.  That way each one comes in its own barrel, and I get a nice big load of barrels to start off with that are quickly emptied should I need to make some booze.  I keep the two picks and the two axes(I usually have two woodcutters, at the start).  I take a couple bags and cloth.  I take about 10 blocks of a magma-safe material to start magma workshops(I prefer bauxite).  I bring 3 bars of charcoal and 3 of bronze, to make a helm, shield and spear for my first militia dwarf right off the bat.  I bring a couple cats.  If I'm in a low-wood zone, I'll bring wood for beds, preferring tower-cap for its color.  If not, then at this point I usually have enough points to scan the animals listing and see if there's anything cool my civ has tamed.  In my current fort, this totally means Elk Birds, though I have gotten lucky before and embarked with a Giant Tiger.

Any remaining points at the end get dumped into more food and booze.
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daggaz

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 03:40:31 pm »

As far as gear, drop one axe or if you really need to, both axes bringing only one stone each for bronze (i used to go the bronze it yourself route, but honestly im usually swimming in points and i find that route wastes too much time).  Sell all your plump helmets.  Drop all the other food saving only one of each type. Buy one foodtype from each kind of animal that costs 2, to get a bunch of barrels.   Up your helmet spawn to 16 (4x4 plots plz), up pig tail seeds and another crop of your choice to 16.   Sell ALL your cloth, thread, medical junk, quivers, buckets, etc at the bottom of the list.  You will replace all of this very fast with your carpenter and your pig tails.  If you actually need medical gear early in the game, you are doing it the !fun! way.   Buy some bags of sand (they are cheap) and a few bags of gypsum in case you dont have any on your embark.  Keep one rope if you want a fast well.  Bring 31 of each booze, but only 21 wine.  This gives you a TON of points, I usually end up with 900+, which I spend thus:

5 pts diagnostics, 5 pts carpenter, make sure he dont procrastinate and hopefully likes helping people.  your doctor now makes the beds and crutches.
5 pts mason, 1 pt building designer (you dont need more really), 4 pts mechanic.  You now have a free mason who can build a bridge ALL by himself. 
5 pts grower, 5 pts brewer.  Will sit in one room and pump out mushrooms and wine.   switch to full time grower if a better brewer comes along.
5 pts armorsmith.  Make sure he likes steel, bronze or adamantium.  no point giving him other skills, he should be aiming  for legendary asap as it is. 
5 pts weaponsmith.  see armorsmith, tho dont sweat it if he doesnt have a metal fetische.
2 miners, 5 pts each.  Yes they hit legendary fast, but I prefer to get my basic fort built fast as possible.  If you want, give them engraving as well, 5 pts.     Its also possible to forgo the miners, and take two military dwarves instead, appointing miners out of the first wave. 

This gives you a good, optimized spread on hard to get skills which also give good returns regarding speed/quality.  Get underground and build up a proto fort, make sure it is sealable from the outside world, then get your metal industry up and running.  Try to make a few bars of steel as fast as possible, in case of moods.  Incoming immigrants go into the military or after their best skills if they are useful ones.  The one grower is more than enough even with 50+ dwarves, provided you farm correctly.  Eventually you will get another decent farmer who can join him, make sure to only allow farmers to harvest.   Herbalism can be done by anybody. All you need to find is a few seeds, and your grower will be massproducing in no time.  As it stands, plump helmets are more than enough for several years.  A cook is a total luxury, appoint one when you find one.  If you really have trouble with happiness, just put a waterfall in, i usually plan for at least one thru the center of my fort.  Hunting, fishing, etc is not needed, wastes points, and usually gets your starting dwarf dead, instead of say, legendary armorsmith status.   Woodcutting is also a waste, anybody can do it with zero skill, and lumber is cheap to trade.  Bookkeeping and a broker are missing, but its easy enough to get them in the incoming waves, and who cares if you dont get the best deal on the first couple caravans.  Half the time I dont even need to trade then.   

I usually have plenty of extra points after this, to go shopping how I see fit.  Playing with extra skills, bringing an entire ranch's worth of animals, bringing extra gems for moods.. whatever.   Anyhow, thats what I been doing. =)

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Mushroo

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 03:58:09 pm »

If you are going for an agricultural embark then don't forget POTASH. By doubling your plant stack size, it will jump-start the exponential growth of your plant industry by a crop generation.
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Sutremaine

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 08:22:57 pm »

If you do bring potash, keep plots of three tiles. Three is just small enough to use one bar of potash on (bars needed = number of tiles / 4 + 1). A small plot will also fill up more quickly, allowing the planter to move onto a different crop. More of the same crop works too; it doesn't really matter in-game except for the extra build time.
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Mushroo

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 08:32:26 pm »

If you do bring potash, keep plots of three tiles. Three is just small enough to use one bar of potash on (bars needed = number of tiles / 4 + 1). A small plot will also fill up more quickly, allowing the planter to move onto a different crop. More of the same crop works too; it doesn't really matter in-game except for the extra build time.

7-tile plot + 2 potash > two 3-tile plots + 2 potash
15 is a little better yet, etc.

Big plant stacks significantly speed up planting of your 2nd generation because each brewing/milling/threshing jobs generates more seeds. If you are prepared for it then you can have a huge exponential growth of plump helmets, etc.
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highmax28

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 10:22:13 pm »

Potash has that use? And are smaller farms really that much better then max size farms that i've been using? Wow, I must be a noobcake at DF  :-[ Oh well, at least you guys are helping me out, I'm learning more now that I found this out  :D And what kind of plants are reccomended to be used, because all I've been doing was plump helmets and thats it, rest of the food was fish and assorted animal bits and stuff left over from something stupid wandering past the cage traps into the serraded discs (note this was my best map, it almost never ended to amaze me... Then update came out), and as another question for embarking, is clay and soil really that useful? I always found it hindering me, i never needed it since i just floodgate my farms and i magically get mud for it, and also for later on: Why the hell does my Cheif Medical Dwarf just sit his ass down and do nothing while clearly half of the fortress has broken bones and theres a functioning traction bench, plenty of cloth, lots of beds, and everything in medical is turned on while all else is off excluding item hauling (and theres no items to be hauled, beleive me!),  plenty of crutches/splints, i have no idea what i need or what i have to do because he sits there idly going "do do do do doo, everyones got broken limbs except me and 3 others guys and i'm not gonna do anything, la la la la laa"  :-\
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just shot him with a balistic arrow, i think he will get stuned from that >.>

"Guardian" and Sigfriend Of Necrothreat
Jee wilikers, I think Highmax is near invulnerable, must have been dunked in the river styx like achilles was.
Just make sure he wears a boot.

FuzzyZergling

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Re: Regarding Embarking
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2011, 11:18:19 pm »

Potash has that use? And are smaller farms really that much better then max size farms that i've been using? Wow, I must be a noobcake at DF  :-[ Oh well, at least you guys are helping me out, I'm learning more now that I found this out  :D And what kind of plants are reccomended to be used, because all I've been doing was plump helmets and thats it, rest of the food was fish and assorted animal bits and stuff left over from something stupid wandering past the cage traps into the serraded discs (note this was my best map, it almost never ended to amaze me... Then update came out), and as another question for embarking, is clay and soil really that useful? I always found it hindering me, i never needed it since i just floodgate my farms and i magically get mud for it, and also for later on: Why the hell does my Cheif Medical Dwarf just sit his ass down and do nothing while clearly half of the fortress has broken bones and theres a functioning traction bench, plenty of cloth, lots of beds, and everything in medical is turned on while all else is off excluding item hauling (and theres no items to be hauled, beleive me!),  plenty of crutches/splints, i have no idea what i need or what i have to do because he sits there idly going "do do do do doo, everyones got broken limbs except me and 3 others guys and i'm not gonna do anything, la la la la laa"  :-\

What I do for farms is se tup six 3x3 plots, then use three plots in spring and autumn and the other three in summer and winter.

Plump helmets are the only plants that can be eaten raw, and can be brewed. They also have a slower grow time than other plants.
Pig tails can be processed for thread or brewed.
Cave wheat can be ground into expensive flour or brewed.
Sweet pods can be processed into expensive syrup or sugar, or brewed. Five syrup is produced for every plant.
Quarry bushes can be processed for their leaves, which can be cooked. Each plant yields five leaves.
Dimple cups can be processed into dye.

Soil levels are useful as stockpiles, since there aren't any stones that need to be hauled away.

Does your CMD have any diagnosing skill?
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