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Author Topic: Building up military force without the "danger room" and living to tell the tale  (Read 2547 times)

The Wanderer of Planes

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Recently I tried multiple ways to build up an early defense force to stand up to goblin raids.

I used to rely solely on stone fall-trap and cage traps to defend myself but I am now tired of
using the same unepic method of protection against invasion.

It lacked the thrill of severed body parts sailing off in an arc!

To train my military, I then learned how to use "danger rooms", and quickly found out that this method
was really an exploit, leveling up any Urist McConscript into a legendary fighter in less than a year.

I grew tired of that too. My whole military was legendary. The only threat they faced was death by
drowning while dodging the attacks of a bronze colossus and diving into the river. They liked to do that.

I tried embarking with an "army veteran" dwarf, which serves as a teacher/fighter for my fortress.
But the training isn't giving any intersting results. It has been roughly five years since I struck the
earth and my militia commander (who is my embark macedwarf in this case) has been training
all year long without becoming much stronger (he gained adequate "striker" skill but not much otherwise).

Is there any way to level up military skills a significant way in a few years from scratch?
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Dwarven politics are always about magma...

Sutremaine

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How many dwarves are in his squad? When skill levels are uneven it's best to get everybody training all the time if possible, so that the most skilled dwarf will always be there to teach. Higher numbers also mean more sparring, but skill gain from that is pretty even between dwarves.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Jerg

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Recently I tried multiple ways to build up an early defense force to stand up to goblin raids.

I used to rely solely on stone fall-trap and cage traps to defend myself but I am now tired of
using the same unepic method of protection against invasion.

It lacked the thrill of severed body parts sailing off in an arc!

To train my military, I then learned how to use "danger rooms", and quickly found out that this method
was really an exploit, leveling up any Urist McConscript into a legendary fighter in less than a year.

I grew tired of that too. My whole military was legendary. The only threat they faced was death by
drowning while dodging the attacks of a bronze colossus and diving into the river. They liked to do that.

I tried embarking with an "army veteran" dwarf, which serves as a teacher/fighter for my fortress.
But the training isn't giving any intersting results. It has been roughly five years since I struck the
earth and my militia commander (who is my embark macedwarf in this case) has been training
all year long without becoming much stronger (he gained adequate "striker" skill but not much otherwise).

Is there any way to level up military skills a significant way in a few years from scratch?

Instead of stonefalls, use serrated disc traps if you want the "limb sail off arc" effect. Don't overuse it though as it's overpowered as hell to have 3 rows of masterful 10x serrated discs per trap.

Split your army into 3-p groups each with an experienced combat dwarf, assign into separate barracks, and let them spar. Also use lots of cage traps to capture goblins for training weapon combat training.
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Nan

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Sparring can be very quick, but getting dwarves to spar effectively is a challenge in itself. Only 2 or 3 dwarves in a squad will spar at any one time, so it is necessary to form squads of 2 or 3 dwarves (squads of 2 seem to train slightly faster). Weapon skill is extremely beneficial, dwarves seem to spar more effectively with high weapon skill and weapon skill is also responsible for parrying, helping them to stay alive longer. So military dwarves you embark with should have proficient weapon skill. Their second skill should be shield user, dodger, armor user, or teacher. If you give them the same secondary skill (i.e. all dodgers) they wont waste time demonstrating that skill, and will spend more time sparring.

Sparring will raise weapon skill and fighter extremely quickly. Shield user will also be raised quickly (dwarves with high weapon skill seem to block more readily), followed distantly by other combat skills. If you want to try and raise other skills (I don't necessarily reccomend this) then take away their weapon and shield. By preventing blocking and parrying, they'll be forced to learn dodger and armor user. The obvious disadvantage is they aren't learning weapon skill and shield user while doing this.

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The Wanderer of Planes

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How many dwarves are in his squad? When skill levels are uneven it's best to get everybody training all the time if possible, so that the most skilled dwarf will always be there to teach. Higher numbers also mean more sparring, but skill gain from that is pretty even between dwarves.

I try to get ten dwarves in the same squad before creating a second squad. It allows the teacher to teach all the recruits at the same time
helping them level up faster. Then when I get to the second squad, I take away a talented dwarf from the first squad and make him a
militia captain.

My military trains all the time... First is because their bad thoughts don't threaten me. Second is because I cannot
find the key to change their training schedule (I know... it's lame).

Also, do marksdwarves level up faster (shooting endlessly at targets all year long) than say speardwarves sparring in the same fashion?
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Mad Max

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How many dwarves are in his squad? When skill levels are uneven it's best to get everybody training all the time if possible, so that the most skilled dwarf will always be there to teach. Higher numbers also mean more sparring, but skill gain from that is pretty even between dwarves.

I try to get ten dwarves in the same squad before creating a second squad. It allows the teacher to teach all the recruits at the same time
helping them level up faster. Then when I get to the second squad, I take away a talented dwarf from the first squad and make him a
militia captain.

My military trains all the time... First is because their bad thoughts don't threaten me. Second is because I cannot
find the key to change their training schedule (I know... it's lame).

Also, do marksdwarves level up faster (shooting endlessly at targets all year long) than say speardwarves sparring in the same fashion?

The military scheduling screen can be reached by pressing "m" and then "s"
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Sutremaine

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I try to get ten dwarves in the same squad before creating a second squad. It allows the teacher to teach all the recruits at the same time
helping them level up faster.
One-on-one training is quicker. I did a two-year experiment with one squad being a legendary dwarf and five recruits (as far as melee was concerned, anyway) and one squad being one legendary dwarf and one student. The first squad trained for two years and the second squad for one year.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The skill imbalance is typical of dwarves training with weapon and shield. They get plenty of fighter, shield, and weapon skill, but lag in other areas.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Lordraymond

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I try to get ten dwarves in the same squad before creating a second squad. It allows the teacher to teach all the recruits at the same time
helping them level up faster.
One-on-one training is quicker. I did a two-year experiment with one squad being a legendary dwarf and five recruits (as far as melee was concerned, anyway) and one squad being one legendary dwarf and one student. The first squad trained for two years and the second squad for one year.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The skill imbalance is typical of dwarves training with weapon and shield. They get plenty of fighter, shield, and weapon skill, but lag in other areas.

Mind explaining what those mean?

I'm not familiar with Therapist or whatever you were using for that. Is it just a symbol representation of skills or what?
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Samoorai

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Piss off the elves. It's a great way to train your dwarves. My latest embark gave me no iron ore deposits, thus leaving me without decent armor. This for many many years meant hiding from the goblins with their sharp iron weapons. However the closest elven civ turned out to be jerks (checked the history and it turned out they LOVED invading and wiping out everyone they came across), and began the game hostile. Given that elves are too pussy to make a proper siege, preferring to sneak around and ambush civilians, my unarmored axedwarves were forced to take them on while the civies got to safety. The fun part; elves use wooden weapons! Effectively they try to fight with training weapons, so my dwarves' steel axes (iron sourced from trade) cut them down with ease, sustaining minimal damage.

So yeah, piss of the elves. They make for great weapons training without the fuss of trapping and disarming goblins.
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Nan

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My latest game I embarked with two military dwarfs, one Axe Dwarf, one Spear Dwarf, both with Proficient Dodger. I had them forge their own steel gear, then spar. They became masters around about autumn, and hit legendary (weapon/fighter) soon after the caravan departed. At this time they were professional shield users.

In the next spring there was a large elf ambush (war with elves from worldgen). It was a glorious slaughter.
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The Wanderer of Planes

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I really like your suggestions about murdering elves. I used to be
such a good host to these tree-huggers, giving them rock crafts (the
easiest way to trade early and maybe an "exploit" too) in exchange
for their wood logs (if only they knew what I did with them)...

But recently I pissed them off by offering them inadvertently some wood
crafts... and when they came back for revenge I was ready to beat them
up, but they were killed by goblin archers before I could have fun with them.

That made me realize that elves have no purpose other than being annoying
and rude (they say they have ethics but are cannibals). Plus they offer nothing
good in trading...

Therefore I believe their only use could be easy training for militia or courageous
geonauts.

But I read that when they attack they not only come with melee fighters but also
with archers, which are much more deadly even though their arrows are made of wood.

Are these ambushes threatening?
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VerdantSF

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As others have mentioned, smaller squads are better.  The best is 2 training all year round, but I like to do squads of 3 with 2 scheduled for duty at all times.  It might not be as efficient, but I like letting my troops have a break every now and then without actually having to take a month off via the overall schedule.  The two on duty spar like crazy, only occasionally stopping to do demonstrations.  A past fort of mine had over 80 pages of sparring combat text for one soldier in little over a year.

The Wanderer of Planes

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I am currently trying the 1 on 1 sparring on a new embark site.
Both of my dwarves are proficient speardwarves and proficient
shield users.

They have trained for less than two months and have already gained
valuable military skills. Sweet!

I am glad to see that this method of training is both efficient and
legit since it does not rely on "exploits" of any sort.

Also, do dwarves (who spar together like brothers) level up faster
if they share the same weapon proficiencies or is it only an
aesthetic choice for the player?
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Mushroo

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I use squads of 2 or 3, training constantly. (I sometimes give them a little vacation if they start flashing Unhappy but this rarely happens once they learn to Take Joy In Slaughter).

Embarking with a military dwarf is not necessary, you can get at least one squad of Legendary by the end of year 2 if you get lucky with immigrants.

When I do embark with a military dwarf, I always check for traits like Strong, Agile, Quick to Heal, etc. and I make sure to give them ranks in Teacher. This guy is my badger-killer until the first migrants arrive, then he gets a training buddy and begins full-time military training. Alternately I will sometimes embark with 1 or more hunters, by the time they kill off all the wildlife they will be legendary archers and then I make them squad leaders to teach their skills to others. Pairing up a hunter with a hammerdwarf immigrant is great because they each have skills to teach the other.

I only recruit immigrants with pre-existing military skill and/or desirable traits. And I build up my army slowly, 2-3 recruits per year is a good pace. I think the biggest rookie mistake that gives DF military training a bad name is to recruit a large number of completely untrained migrants. Better to be selective, have a small but highly-trained militia (preferably that never makes friends with the general population because they're too busy training) and use those immigrant potash makers to actually make potash. ;)
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The Wanderer of Planes

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True. Some job profile always come back as backbone meatgrinder
military conscripts in league for fun: weaver, spinner, clothier, animal caretaker,
fish dissector, animal dissector... and of course potash maker
(probably the most unused profession in the game, at least in early stages).

Or they end up in the atom-smasher. Sad end for them.
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Dwarven politics are always about magma...
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