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[Leafsnail]

How does you flipping xeno invalidate your inspection? If anything, that would make it more credible.

Because a Xeno is not town.  Maybe I was telling the truth, maybe I wasn't.  And in any case, Jack AT has no way of knowing my actual alignment, and may have assumed I was a doppelganger due to Shakerag's damning-if-nonsensical claim.

What about Jim? He's been asking you "inane, repetitive questions" too. Do you think he's scum or otherwise guaranteed to be out to get you?

Since I know your dopp buddies are backing you up it seems likely.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Oh, so the dopp team is me, Dariush, Jim, and probably Pandar then?

[Leafsnail]

Maybe?  With the town so inactive and your case so apparently solid* your fourth member (or third member, if Jim's just questioning so much for fun) could easily lurk it out.

*Other than Shakerag's inspections making no sense, his lack of claim of it yesterday being weird and the fact that he can only quote one small soundbite from each person he inspected (which he didn't pick up on at all at the time in either case), your telling the Xeno to claim without actually naming him, your strange choice of targets for your tracker bots and so on

[Jokerman-EXE]

Jim:

So Urist Imiknorris the dopp advised you to capture Dariush the dopp?

Makes perfect sense.

What did you have to gain by doing this? What did the dopp team have to gain by doing this?

That's easy: they could swap one relatively useless dopp (who looks like a scummy scumbag to the town anyway) for another dopp with a relatively more powerful role. Did that really not occur to you at all? Strange, considering you were convinced he was scum yesterday.

But if you wanted to work with the dopps you could've just PMed them instead of return one of their members back to them.

And you also capture a dopp and scan an alien Night 1, and with the game essentially half-won for you, you decide to capture another dopp Night 2 instead of the alien, revealing your identity to the dopps in the process.

WIFOM as fuck. "Could've PMed them" is a straight-up useless point. Yeah sure, he could have. He could also have done an infinite number of things.

If what Leafsnail is claiming is true (which, to be clear, I do not entirely believe just yet - however, I am a fan of playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of argument) then yes, he would have captured a dopp after scanning an alien, because that removes the liability that is Dariush, and secures a partnership with the dopps.

Wheras actually returning a member gives them someone to talk to who can vouch for me as a Xeno.

Also that.

I'm going to use a different definition of the word tunneling in this case. You're completely unwilling to even consider another side of the case...why? What information do you have - that you are withholding from the rest of the town - that makes you so sure?

Urist I:

All I see you doing is picking at Leafsnail's argument without actually attacking or really doing much more than some softcore [strike]porn[/strike] accusations. If you're convinced of Leafsnail's guilt, then fine; whom else do you suspect? Because it's a waste of a day for you to place your vote on someone and then sit back and pick at them instead of continuing the hunt.

[Shakerag]

Oh god.  So much to catch up. 

IronyOwl: It seemed chainsaw-y, because I was contemplating at the time that you and Jim might be on the scumteam.  In so far as to why I thought OB was town ... I'm not sure if this is inexperience talking or just me, but I can't point you to a specific post or posts and say "this is why I think he's town".  I think the best way I can articulate my "gut feeling" into more concrete words is by saying that, given the situation he was in, if he truly were scum I would have expected a different reaction. 

As to why I wasn't asking a lot of questions about who was voting him, again, I wanted to attract as little attention from those I suspected to be on the scumteam until I had at least a couple of inspections under my belt.  If I died N1 or N2 without telling about my N1 inspection, then that seemed like it would be a tremendous waste to me. 

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking after the second quote in that post.  Can you rephrase?

No, I didn't think one townie for one dopp was a good deal.  I spent some time looking through past games on theories about when to claim as "cop", and the one that stood out to me was to claim after a positive result unless it was a larger game.  This is a larger game, ergo, I decided to not claim on D2. 

Yes, I didn't do much poking and picked a N2 inspect target via a different method.  Just because that was the plan in my head at the start of D2 doesn't mean I was bound to follow it.

---
I can see this might take a while.  I'll have to get to other points addressed to/about me later as I can.

[Shakerag]

Jack A T: What were your reasons for your protect targets? 

[Jim Groovester]

What did you have to gain by doing this? What did the dopp team have to gain by doing this?

That's easy: they could swap one relatively useless dopp (who looks like a scummy scumbag to the town anyway) for another dopp with a relatively more powerful role. Did that really not occur to you at all? Strange, considering you were convinced he was scum yesterday.

Intelligence Scientist isn't that powerful of a role. Not to the dopps anyway, who are doing most of the moving during the night that everybody wants to find out anyway.

Unless you're implicitly stating that Urist Imiknorris is lying and he has some other role. In which case, you should state that explicitly.

Dariush (if he is a dopp) is a sinking ship, who cares what happens to him. They're better of bussing him to look more town and to waste a day of the town's time than trade him back for Urist Imiknorris.

Strange, considering you were convinced he was scum yesterday.

Yuh huh, and then Urist Imiknorris came back, confirming him and Dariush as the same alignment, with role results that condemn Leafsnail, and Leafsnail's response is to claim it's a giant conspiracy out to get him.

More than enough to reconsider.

WIFOM as fuck. "Could've PMed them" is a straight-up useless point. Yeah sure, he could have. He could also have done an infinite number of things.

If what Leafsnail is claiming is true (which, to be clear, I do not entirely believe just yet - however, I am a fan of playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of argument) then yes, he would have captured a dopp after scanning an alien, because that removes the liability that is Dariush, and secures a partnership with the dopps.

You can call it WIFOM all you want, but you're going to need a stronger protest than that. If Leafsnail wanted to work with the doppelgangers (because he has a case of sudden onset brain damage) then there are several legitimate alternatives to returning a dopp to them and I can ask Leafsnail all the fuck I want about them.

Like PMs.

Do you have a problem with me probing Leafsnail for why he didn't consider other options than ones that are stupid and retarded? Apparently you do. I don't know why.

Wheras actually returning a member gives them someone to talk to who can vouch for me as a Xeno.

Also that.

And if Urist Imiknorris the dopp was deadset on getting Leafsnail the Xenozoologist to work with the dopps, he could've slipped Leafsnail some privileged dopp-only information to confirm Leafsnail as legit.

No need to return a dopp to vouch for him, because there are fucking PRIVATE MESSAGES.

I'm going to use a different definition of the word tunneling in this case. You're completely unwilling to even consider another side of the case...why? What information do you have - that you are withholding from the rest of the town - that makes you so sure?

Nice rolefishing, dude.

Apparently a bunch of agreeing claims and a growing list of people that have to be lying in order for Leafsnail to be what he says he is isn't enough to convince you, but it's enough for me.


This is rampant chainsawing under the guise of playing devil's advocate. Why?

[Urist_McArathos]

Okay, so let me see if I get all this:

Imiknorris claims he's town, abducted by the Xeno (not named yet), and that he is cooperating with the Xeno to help eliminate the alien and a dopp.

Shakerag claims he's inspected IronyOwl and Leafsnail, both are scum (and he withheld a claim or votes to fly under the scum radar until now).

Leafsnail claims he is the Xeno, Imiknorris is a dopp that decided to betray him.  Imiknorris denies this, but also pushed for the Xeno not to counter-claim.

Jack claims Heroic Guard, and his protects.  Leafsnail accuses him of being an alien instead (Hivemind specifically).

Oookay then...productive day so far, eh?

I'm not really sure who to believe here.  Removing Dariush from the picture is a good move for town OR scum (since he was a strong candidate for a second, final lynch after the end of the day yesterday).  Shakerag's inspects corroborate Imiknorris' story, but that's assuming they're not fake-claiming.  It may be WIFOM, but I'm going to believe Jack, at least.  The Hivemind takes his entire team with him when he dies; the kind of stunt Jack would be pulling might work closer to LYLO, but this early on it's suicide for them; it buys him one more day, and even with full converts that won't be enough to push the voting block off him tomorrow once he's proven a liar (if he isn't NKed by the Dopps first, since he would also be a threat to them).

So, for now I'm voting Leafsnail, on the grounds his Xeno claim right now stinks to high heaven.  Imiknorris' point that betraying Leafsnail would out two scum for no reason seems legit; I can't see any reason he would agree to cooperate with the Xeno then betray him, putting at least three dopps out of commission.

Questions:

Leafsnail: Why did you abduct Dariush last night?  I understand the whole having someone vouch for you, but why Dariush?  If Imiknorris is scum, he could have provided you with ANY of the scum team members PPE: Actually, I forgot about the fact we can PM (just read Jim's post).  Now this decision really stinks.  The Dariush abduction makes more sense from the point of Imiknorris being a townie groping blindly for an obv-scum/alien target.

Imiknorris: Why don't you want the real Xeno claiming?  It would corroborate your story.

NUKE: Why Irony instead of Leafsnail?

[Mephansteras]

The Monitor
IronyOwl: NUKE9.13
Leafsnail: Jack AT, Jim Groovester, Pandarsenic, Shakerag, Urist Imiknorris, Urist_McArathos
NUKE9.13: Mysteriousbluepuppet
Shakerag: IronyOwl
Urist Imiknorris: Jokerman-EXE, Leafsnail

[hr

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Wednesday

[Leafsnail]

So, for now I'm voting Leafsnail, on the grounds his Xeno claim right now stinks to high heaven.  Imiknorris' point that betraying Leafsnail would out two scum for no reason seems legit; I can't see any reason he would agree to cooperate with the Xeno then betray him, putting at least three dopps out of commission.

This is the exact reason I accepted the deal - I couldn't see any reason for them to betray me, putting 1 dopp out of commission (not sure where 3 comes from - Urist I was out anyway.  He's back now but Dariush is gone, so if Urist I really were exposing himself they'd be at -1 dopp).  However, it would seem that they have some role (such as vig) that means they don't care so much about being outed anymore.  Indeed, if this were the case, all the better if the town's blocks and such are targetted at the one outed dopp rather than spread around with a risk of hitting the crucial one.

Leafsnail: Why did you abduct Dariush last night?  I understand the whole having someone vouch for you, but why Dariush?  If Imiknorris is scum, he could have provided you with ANY of the scum team members PPE: Actually, I forgot about the fact we can PM (just read Jim's post).  Now this decision really stinks.  The Dariush abduction makes more sense from the point of Imiknorris being a townie groping blindly for an obv-scum/alien target.

Dariush wasn't to be the one vouching for me.  He was just the one who would be swapped for Urist I so that Urist I could vouch for me.  He could have given me any other scumteam member... but why would he give me anyone other than the guy who's already been lynched once and is pretty likely to be lynched again on the next day?

As for why swap rather than just pm... well, compare the situations:

- I randomly call up Dariush (Urist I didn't want to feed me the names of any other scumteam members - understandable) asking for his cooperation, with no proof of my role or what I want.  Also I tell him I'm not gonna release his teammate and he's gonna die again tomorrow, lol.  Note that this deal really is pretty raw for Urist I - heck, it's not even a deal really, just me kindof hoping that the doppelgangers will work with me for no reason and with no backing.

- Urist I, confirmed to be on the same team as his buddies, explains the plan to them.  Urist I is in a far better position than Dariush, and is more likely to survive.  I have proved that I am prepared to work with the doppelgangers, and as you say, they don't have any real reason to betray me (except apparently their team is overpowered enough that they do).

It's plain that the second situation would lead to a far greater chance of success in the deal.  Yes?

Also, if Urist I's imaginary Xeno was looking for an alien, he managed to pick the one person in the entire game who was publically confirmed not to be an alien.

Imiknorris: Why don't you want the real Xeno claiming?  It would corroborate your story.

Bear in mind he did at one point.  Although didn't actually name the Xeno at that point because uh.  Revealing the Xeno's name would be bad even he wanted the Xeno to reveal his own name minutes later?

[Urist Imiknorris]

McArathos:

Imiknorris: Why don't you want the real Xeno claiming?  It would corroborate your story.

Because he doesn't want to claim at the moment, as it would put a target on his back for the dopps tonight to foil Irony's abduction. I agree with him because it would be better to wait until the dopps can't gain anything from killing him (if he waited until tomorrow to claim he could confirm Irony as a dopp, thus removing their incentive to get him back).

Jim: A fairly major point Day 1 was that you didn't want to bother arguing with Leafsnail since you two just end up having to agree to disagree. What's so different about this case?

Jokerman: At the moment I suspect:

Jim for the reason noted above.
Shark because of his D1 activity and Native's post, pending more information from Native.
IronyOwl because of Shakerag's claim, his reluctance to vote today, and his activity D2, wherein he went after NUKE while agreeing with Jim about Dariush, then bandwagoned the latter.

[Jim Groovester]

Because HE SCUM

I don't believe Leafsnail's claim so I want to poke as many holes in it as possible, or enough to make it obvious enough how much scum he is.

On Day 1 my read on him was town enough, and I doubted that any argument I could have had with him would have significantly changed that.

But what kind of asinine question is that? What's so different about this case vs. the one on Day 1? How about all the claims coming out, dumpass.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I thought that's what it was, but I wanted you to explicitly say it.

[Leafsnail]

I thought that's what it was, but I wanted you to explicitly say it.

Then why list him as a suspect.  If he actually were a suspect of yours that would've been one hell of a softball question.

[Urist_McArathos]

So, for now I'm voting Leafsnail, on the grounds his Xeno claim right now stinks to high heaven.  Imiknorris' point that betraying Leafsnail would out two scum for no reason seems legit; I can't see any reason he would agree to cooperate with the Xeno then betray him, putting at least three dopps out of commission.

This is the exact reason I accepted the deal - I couldn't see any reason for them to betray me, putting 1 dopp out of commission (not sure where 3 comes from - Urist I was out anyway.  He's back now but Dariush is gone, so if Urist I really were exposing himself they'd be at -1 dopp).  However, it would seem that they have some role (such as vig) that means they don't care so much about being outed anymore.  Indeed, if this were the case, all the better if the town's blocks and such are targetted at the one outed dopp rather than spread around with a risk of hitting the crucial one.

Hm.  Well, I can't argue with the point that, if they DID trick you, it implies they have more power than they need from you.  I got the three scum because, if Imiknorris is lying, you've outed him, Dariush (who would return after your death), and Shakerag as dopps (since he would be lying to corroborate Imiknorris' backstab).  All three would be removed in short order as a result, crippling the scum team.  It seems insanely dangerous for the scum to try, though (but "it's a bad idea if you're scum" is prime grade WIFOM, so it's not a valid argument).

That begs the question of why they'd bother working a deal with you in the first place if they didn't need you.  I don't expect you to give me an answer to that, but it makes your claim seem flimsy anyway.  If you were useless enough to betray this quickly, why cooperate with you at all?

Leafsnail: Why did you abduct Dariush last night?  I understand the whole having someone vouch for you, but why Dariush?  If Imiknorris is scum, he could have provided you with ANY of the scum team members PPE: Actually, I forgot about the fact we can PM (just read Jim's post).  Now this decision really stinks.  The Dariush abduction makes more sense from the point of Imiknorris being a townie groping blindly for an obv-scum/alien target.

Dariush wasn't to be the one vouching for me.  He was just the one who would be swapped for Urist I so that Urist I could vouch for me.  He could have given me any other scumteam member... but why would he give me anyone other than the guy who's already been lynched once and is pretty likely to be lynched again on the next day?

As for why swap rather than just pm... well, compare the situations:

- I randomly call up Dariush (Urist I didn't want to feed me the names of any other scumteam members - understandable) asking for his cooperation, with no proof of my role or what I want.  Also I tell him I'm not gonna release his teammate and he's gonna die again tomorrow, lol.  Note that this deal really is pretty raw for Urist I - heck, it's not even a deal really, just me kindof hoping that the doppelgangers will work with me for no reason and with no backing.

- Urist I, confirmed to be on the same team as his buddies, explains the plan to them.  Urist I is in a far better position than Dariush, and is more likely to survive.  I have proved that I am prepared to work with the doppelgangers, and as you say, they don't have any real reason to betray me (except apparently their team is overpowered enough that they do).

It's plain that the second situation would lead to a far greater chance of success in the deal.  Yes?

Also, if Urist I's imaginary Xeno was looking for an alien, he managed to pick the one person in the entire game who was publically confirmed not to be an alien.

This seems contradictory.  Imiknorris wants to cooperate with you, and agrees to a deal, but refuses to name his scum partners or give you anything to help seal said deal?

You could have PMed anyone, even Dariush, with details from Imiknorris to confirm you were legit (like quoting a numbered line from scumchat that you couldn't know without talking to someone from scumchat).  Going through this whole rigmarole instead of a few sneaky PMs seems asinine and convoluted, not to mention ridiculously dangerous since the swap and cover story has to pass muster with the entire town watching. 

Actually, Imiknorris' "imaginary" Xeno's move makes more sense from his "I'm town" perspective, honestly.  He takes Town Imiknorris, who doesn't know who anyone is for certain.  They guess "Dariush is acting scummy and has alien/mad scientist tech, that's a good shot he's either a dopp or alien", and Xeno needs both to win so he snags him hoping for the best (because he wouldn't JUST be looking for an alien, but you'd remember that if you were a Xeno, right?).  While this scenario isn't proof Imiknorris is being honest, it IS proof that his story isn't the ridiculous claim you're making it out to be.

McArathos:

Imiknorris: Why don't you want the real Xeno claiming?  It would corroborate your story.

Because he doesn't want to claim at the moment, as it would put a target on his back for the dopps tonight to foil Irony's abduction. I agree with him because it would be better to wait until the dopps can't gain anything from killing him (if he waited until tomorrow to claim he could confirm Irony as a dopp, thus removing their incentive to get him back).

So, are you guys planning to have the Xeno claim tomorrow, or just deciding not to today?  The reasoning makes sense, at least.