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[Orangebottle]

This is the best laugh I've had in a while.
I'm only going to be laughing harder when I'm lynched.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Are there Jesters in this game?

[Orangebottle]

Are there Jesters in this game?

No. You should probably read the OP. A simple CTRL+F gave me that information.

[Toaster]

Jim:  You're being asked a bunch of questions because those questioning you aren't getting sufficient detail the first time.  Sure, I'll expand for you.

On your Shark vote:

Orangebottle, what is this? The instant people begin to vote you, instead of explaining yourself and why you did it, you just "bow out". If you're tired of mafia, then why did you even sign up? We're barely leaving RVS on day one. If you're just going to ragequit questions thrown your way, then you should hang or get a replacement. Also, you vote dariush because... you don't like his meta? It was RVS, but still, give a person a chance in a new game!

This also looks like a lazy bandwagon.

How does ragequitting make a person scum?

Here's where you first attack Shark.  No vote, but you attack his vote logic.

Here you vote him, adding nothing to your case- the only change is that he's asked for a replace.

Mostly because of flimsily justified bandwagon vote. Or rather, the only thing of content he posted before ditching the game.

Next you confirm your reasoning on Shark- either it should have been done at vote time or you should have voted when you first went after him.

On Orangebottle:

Jim: You spend a lot of time jabbing at people for bandwagoning, but that's just under half of your solid post-RVS content today. What are your own thoughts on Orangebottle?

He has a shitty day game that lots of people are taking advantage of right now.

You're asked your opinion of him, and you don't give any clear indication of your view of his alignment.

So what's his alignment?  This is a bit evasive for someone who is usually very blunt.

I thought saying that Orangebottle was getting taken advantage of would have made it clear.

I think he's town.

You say he's town, claiming your citing the attacks of others indicate this.

Jim:  It may have been clear to you, but I still wanted to hear you say it.  What makes you think so?  It can't be his day game, since according to you it is "shitty".  Your later comment seems to indicate that it's because of the nature of the attacks on him- is that the case?

Shitty play isn't necessarily scummy play. He's making many of the same mistakes I saw him make as town in other games. (Particularly Wild Wild West Mafia. See my reply to Leafsnail.) Essentially, I recognize his meta, even if it's objectively terrible play.

The attacks on him by other players don't really affect my opinion of him very much.

Now, however, the attacks by others don't matter.

Your arguments don't tell me that you think he's town.  From what I read, you're telling me you don't think he's scum... because he's a bad player?  That's the Org defense, and it's not any more valid here than when he did it.  You should know better than that.

I don't know how much more I can say about this. Bending backwards from pressure is a familiar thing for Orangebottle to do. If it was the only thing he was doing I'd be more concerned, but he's still around hunting and arguing and so on.

Now, several posts later, you come out with a definitive reason you think he is town.  There isn't any real reason to not post this the first time you were questioned for more detail on your read of him.

Again, this is out of your meta.  For someone who is blunt, you're being very slow to explain your reasoning.



Orangebottle:  Please rank these four players in order of scummitude:  Leafsnail, Jim, Nuke, Irony.  Never mind.

This is the best laugh I've had in a while.
I'm only going to be laughing harder when I'm lynched.

Orangebottle, RiA doesn't work around here.

Actually, sure, answer the struck-out question.  Why not.


Urist I:  There are Spore Spreaders, which trigger an effect on lynch.

[Orangebottle]

Hm, lessee, Jim-NUKE-Snail-Irony . In order from Scummiest-least scummy.

Actually, let's add Imiknorris right up there at the top for trying to shorten the day when we have time to hunt the actual scum, and his immediate attitude change when he realized that the majority of the players would react violently to my last-second tie.

Jim's been defending me all day. More accurately, he's been attacking anyone voting for me up until I tried to tie the vote. I've also got those gut feelings I've mentioned, which have been startlingly accurate in the past.

NUKE has been pretty ridiculous all day. I get the feeling he's trying to be lynched, as he usually isn't this silly.

Leafsnail's perfectly content to just sit there instead of using the time to look for scum.

Irony's reaction was expected, as almost everyone else's. It was overreacting, somewhat.

[Toaster]

Orange:  Yup, you failed.  If you honestly suspected Jim more than Nuke, you would have changed your vote a while back- not right at lynch time.  Enjoy the noose.

[IronyOwl]

Orangebottle:

Irony: Wow. That's quite a reaction. Care to explain what you were thinking when you switched your vote?

That you tied the vote at the last second to save your ass, which is both scummy as fuck and a waste of a day.

What makes not wanting to be out of the game a scum-only trait?

The part where you're willing to sacrifice a lynch to do it, in a way that's deliberately designed to prevent anyone from stopping you.

This also strikes me as incredibly scummy, though I can't say why. Maybe because it feels like elated RIA scum laughter?

This feels like someone's trying to pad a case against me. It's pretty ridiculous to use that as a voting reason. "Oh, he laughed at posting right before someone, lynch he!"

That's not an explicit voting reason, I was just pointing out that you seem like gleeful scum to me.


Imiknorris:

Basically there was a sociology paper due 2¹/₂ hours ago that I still needed to finish and I felt my case on Shark wasn't good enough for a vote.

Ah, alright then. Have you been busy this whole game?

If you had done that before the very end of the fucking day (like a few hours before at least) I'd be more willing to believe you.

So, you'd have been alright with him tying the vote to stay alive by voting someone he didn't really suspect, so long as it wasn't at the end of the day like that?

[Orangebottle]

Orange:  Yup, you failed.  If you honestly suspected Jim more than Nuke, you would have changed your vote a while back- not right at lynch time.  Enjoy the noose.

Someday we'll remember this and laugh. and laugh. and laugh. Oh boy.
Implying I can't re-evaluate my suspicions is hilarious.

Orangebottle:
The part where you're willing to sacrifice a lynch to do it, in a way that's deliberately designed to prevent anyone from stopping you.

I wasn't informed that Mephansteras was going to be extending the day/deleting my vote at all after I PM'd him. I didn't really want Jim to get lynched at that point.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Imiknorris:

Basically there was a sociology paper due 2¹/₂ hours ago that I still needed to finish and I felt my case on Shark wasn't good enough for a vote.

Ah, alright then. Have you been busy this whole game?

Since Monday. Finals week.

If you had done that before the very end of the fucking day (like a few hours before at least) I'd be more willing to believe you.

So, you'd have been alright with him tying the vote to stay alive by voting someone he didn't really suspect, so long as it wasn't at the end of the day like that?

I can understand his given explanation (I know I'd hate to be lynched by someone who stopped playing the game), but it doesn't work unless he gives us time to actually do something about it. Otherwise, it's just a wasted day, and what townie would want that?

[abbr=Of course, there's no way to really confirm this PM, and you have no reason to believe me, so bleh.][/abbr]

You could have just posted the request instead of PMing it.

[Orangebottle]

My mind told me that posting it in the thread would look desperate. :/

The day's not really wasted if we don't lynch someone, as we have plenty to look at from today.

[Urist_McArathos]

My mind told me that posting it in the thread would look desperate. :/

The day's not really wasted if we don't lynch someone, as we have plenty to look at from today.

NUKE would be proud you admitted that.  I personally don't find your preventing Shark's vote being the lynch one that scummy, as Meph personally stepped in to prevent it from being the case.  However, you need to dial back the "You'll be sorry" shit.  It's scummy, and it does NOTHING to prove you're town.  It's making me wonder if we shouldn't just go ahead and lynch you anyway, if you can't make better use of the next 24 hours to prove you aren't scum.

[Orangebottle]

That'll be a little difficult when people are unwilling tolisten to what I say. Then again, Leaf's been stubborn pretty much all day. Also, I am looking incredibly scummy right now. Thanks for being(essentially) the only person willing to listen, although I have to wonder why.

Anyway, right. Where was I? Ah, yes.

Imiknorris:
Actually, I feel that the fact the new rule is there at all is perfect evidence that I PM'd Meph about it. Anyway, that backtracking was pretty terrible, and I get the feeling from your post that the timestamp argument is just a flimsy excuse to disguise it. You'd think that you would already know what time the lynch happens locally, because that's a pretty damn important time.

Jim:
All day you've been standing back-to-back with me, keeping others from jumping all over me while I try and hunt some scum. My question is, why? I'm justified doing scummy shit as town because my day game is just that fucking awful? This doesn't make any sense. Just because I'm awful as town, it doesn't mean I'm not that awful as scum. I allowed it at the time because it enabled me to hunt easier, but I can't help but question your motives.

[Orangebottle]

EBWOP: to listen to what i say*.

[Jim Groovester]

Shark stuff

Sure, whatever, fair enough. I should have stated the reasons for my vote more clearly at the time of voting.

Orangebottle stuff

And now it's not fair enough.

You're asked your opinion of him, and you don't give any clear indication of your view of his alignment.

. . .

You say he's town, claiming your citing the attacks of others indicate this.

. . .

Now, however, the attacks by others don't matter.

. . .

Now, several posts later, you come out with a definitive reason you think he is town.  There isn't any real reason to not post this the first time you were questioned for more detail on your read of him.

I'll point out that there's absolutely no reversal or contradiction in my opinion at all through all of your questioning.

I start with: Orangebottle has a shitty day game and that people are taking advantage of him. What I meant by shitty day game is exactly what I eventually explained. I didn't explain this in excessive detail at the start because I didn't think it was necessary.

You say that there was no reason for me not to post what I eventually ended up with, but there was also no reason for me to expect that a more explicitly detailed answer than the one I gave was somehow desired, requested, or required. I thought my answers were sufficient through the whole process. Clearly you don't agree.

Again, this is out of your meta.  For someone who is blunt, you're being very slow to explain your reasoning.

The fuck it is.

If I knew what exactly you wanted out of me I would have given it to you right then and there, but because I didn't, this is somehow so completely far and beyond the realm of normal expectations for Jim Groovester that this becomes sufficient grounds to lynch me?

That's ridiculous. Sorry I didn't answer your question quickly enough, bro, because, damn, it's not like it's perfectly legitimately possible that I thought I was.

Jim:
All day you've been standing back-to-back with me, keeping others from jumping all over me while I try and hunt some scum. My question is, why? I'm justified doing scummy shit as town because my day game is just that fucking awful? This doesn't make any sense. Just because I'm awful as town, it doesn't mean I'm not that awful as scum. I allowed it at the time because it enabled me to hunt easier, but I can't help but question your motives.

You don't have to be a self-loathing mafia player and it doesn't help you at all and if you're aware enough of the problems with your game then you should stop doing the stuff that causes these problems.

Anyway, your points are flawed. If you have just as awful a day game as town as you do when scum, then if you do stupid shit it doesn't really mean anything one way or the other about your alignment. In which case, since it's inconclusive, why would I lynch you over that?

Regardless of your objections to me not thinking you're scum, I've stated repeatedly what my position on you was and why I thought you were town (up until recently). If you want an answer about it you can look through my posts.

[Jack A T]

Jim: Not exactly.  I'm describing someone who makes statements like this:

All I see you saying is that Orangebottle was rolefishing, which is an accusation I don't agree with and I suspect you for so readily agreeing with it.

Statements that indicate that it isn't just bandwagoning that you have a problem with, but agreeing with the argument, whether augmented with additional arguments or not.

There's a subtle distinction you're trying to make that I'm having a hard time figuring it out.

I've said repeatedly I think it's a bad argument. What problem is there that I think jumping on a bad argument in a lazy way is a scummy thing to do?

Jim: Okay, that's it, you almost definitely didn't read past my first sentence in the "Let me get this straight" section.

My impression has been that you consider the argument bad enough that, with or without additional reasoning given, agreeing with it is rather scummy.  Yet, you don't consider Leafsnail scummy, because...um...you don't care as much about him as about people who agree with him, and he's so hard to read that you can't get anywhere with him in arguments and thus aren't going to bother trying.  So, to defeat the case, you go on and try to argue with anyone who agrees with Leafsnail, because arguing with Leafsnail is too hard.

Man, I really have to wonder what 3 person LYLO would be like with you two.  "I can't read that guy, so I'm going to vote for the other guy!" and so on.

Second question: Two things:
*His responses to my questions were the first time I actually saw anything resembling the whole "deferring to attacker's opinion" thing you mentioned in his play today.  Would you be kind enough to show other moments?
*His responses were just like those to me in Ockham's, with the confusion about how his own brain works and such.

As early as here.

It seriously took you this long to recognize, hey, this is a thing he does in other games?

...Does his opinion actually change in either of the questions that even remotely resemble that meta?  Nope!  Not at all!  He basically said "Yes, I did say exactly what I did say" twice.  If I asked you whether you are saying that Orangebottle defers to his attackers' opinions in other games, and you said yes, that wouldn't be a reason to throw away an entire case and call you a solid townie.  Clearly, however, if the same situation happens with me asking Orangebottle about his words, Orangebottle's meta means that that would make him TOWN TOWN TOWN AND NOT SCUMMY.  Even though it's meaningless.

So, to your question, I have a simple response: It took him actually deferring to an opponent's argument for me to realize that he was deferring to an opponent's argument like in other games.

Hey, guys. Sorry to waste a day for you, but I'm going to vote for Jim. I'm not going out without a fight, mainly because I came here to play this game, not get lynched by a single unrescindable vote cast on me because some idiot voted for me, then asked for a replacement. That's utter bullshit, and I'm not going to stand for it.

Orangebottle: WHAT

EBWOP: Damn your ninja ways.

Kekekekekekekeke~
I'm just sneaky like that.

THE

This is the best laugh I've had in a while.
I'm only going to be laughing harder when I'm lynched.

FUCK?

Unvote, vote Orangebottle.  Last minute vote gaming alone is enough to get you this vote by far, but your main reaction to being attacked for it is to laugh at the town?  Seriously?