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[NUKE9.13]

Ho hum.

You know what I reckon? I reckon that McArathos is scum. His case on Shark is too complex a read for such a simple action; it has more the air of justification for a vote than a reason for a vote.
To me it looks like McArathos was looking for an easy D1 lynch. And generally this is not an attitude held by townsfolk.

I was asking Shark whether he was town in order to get a better read of him; if I too reckoned Shark was scum, it would be silly to berate McArathos for sharing that opinion.

[Toaster]

Urist I:  Fine.  I don't think I'm getting anything from you.

Unvote Urist I.

Dariush:

Wing it how?

What do you expect to get from this question?  If you're winging it, how can you know what you're doing in advance- that'd be self-contradictory.


Jim:

Jim: You spend a lot of time jabbing at people for bandwagoning, but that's just under half of your solid post-RVS content today. What are your own thoughts on Orangebottle?

He has a shitty day game that lots of people are taking advantage of right now.

So what's his alignment?  This is a bit evasive for someone who is usually very blunt.

On that subject, why exactly are you voting Shark?  It looks more like a policy lynch than anything else right now.


Urist McA:

Also, avoiding RVS is somewhat anti-town.  The entire purpose is to get the scumhunting started.  If you don't like it, make like NUKE and do something outrageous or unorthodox to move things along.  Come up with your preferred alternative to RVS, and try it.  What you do not do, EVER, is come out and say you're going to lurk until something interesting happens.  Lurking and waiting on others is scummy because it does nothing to help town at all.

What if the individual in question has a well-established meta of ignoring RVS?  (Case in point: Jokerman)  Is it still scummy?

[Orangebottle]

He has a shitty day game that lots of people are taking advantage of right now.

While I appreciate the defense, I'm a big boy, Jim. I can handle myself. Do you think I'm town? Why don't you agree with the accusation of rolefishing?

I'm seeing something strange from you this game. I don't know what's bothering me, but I have a bad feeling about your posts. And these things have been very accurate in the past.
NUKE:
How does asking Shark if he's town or not help you get a read on him? Most people are just going to dismiss it as you asking silly questions. I don't see how your voting logic works, either.

[Dariush]

What do you expect to get from this question?  If you're winging it, how can you know what you're doing in advance- that'd be self-contradictory.

He just admitted to planning to spin a case from a single case of wrong wording. I want to know his reasons and plans, since I sincerely doubt winging a case on a random person is a townie move, especially on a person who's already got several votes on him at the time of explanation. Unvote meanwhile.

[Shakerag]

Pandarsenic: Any reason why you never answered my question way back here?

I'm finding your interactions with OB fishy.  The way you phrase (what you call) his logic and your focus on "danger to every town role", "endanger town roles", and "not looking more townlike" ... All you're missing now is some cheerleader-like cry about doing something for the good of the town.  It certainly seems to me that rather than build any sort of substantial case you're focusing too much on image instead. 

Jim: Regarding the Dariush/NUKE meta thing - I really dislike the concept and usage of anything "meta", and I think having a situation like "so-and-so always goes after someone else every game" is distracting from the game at hand.  My gut feeling is that meta actions like these eventually end up helping the scumteam because of situations like "you can't vote player x for action y because that's just his meta", and so that gives a person a bit of a buffer from some scummy actions.  However, I also unfortuantely have a gut feeling that meta-tells and meta-arguments end up being important aspects in games like these. 

[Urist_McArathos]

Toaster: I used the qualifier "somewhat" for a reason.  Refusing to participate in RVS is only scummy if they don't try to get the game rolling some other way.  Jokerman and NUKE may both hate it, but I see them consistently start hunting and talking via other ways.

My problem with Shark was his stating his intention to do nothing until he saw a target.  Lurking until you can jump on someone doesn't help find scum, it helps push a bandwagon.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Dariush:

He just admitted to planning to spin a case from a single case of wrong wording. I want to know his reasons and plans, since I sincerely doubt winging a case on a random person is a townie move, especially on a person who's already got several votes on him at the time of explanation.

By "winging it" I meant that I would continue attacking Shark if his answers made me suspicious, and if not I would stop trying to use his answer to determine his alignment and go back to scumhunting normally. There's a reason why I specifically asked Shark that question - I thought that he would be the most likely player to accidentally let his actual goals slip through in his answer.

Is there a reason why you're ignoring Irony and Orangebottle?

Jokerman:

So Urist I, let's get specific. You must have something in mind. What would you do if you got unsatisfactory answers?

I would continue attacking him until he was more forthcoming.

Jack:

Imiknorris: Can you give us a better example, then?

If he had said that he would try to determine who was most likely to have a power role (so he could leave them alone), or perhaps if he said that he was going to try not to do anything scummy (so as to not waste the town's time). Alternatively, if he didn't do what he said he was going to (such as overreacting) later on.

Shark:

As you guys can see, how i've only made one post, it turns out that i'm not really in to this mafia game for some reason. I'm just finding it boring. I have no motivation and it would be much better for the game if I was replaced. Sorry about this, I don't know why this just isn't fun for me, despite that I've had fun with previous games here.

But your one post was very enlightening and filled with content! Why would you put that much effort in if you had no motivation? Are you trying to dump your mistake on whoever replaces you?

Shakerag:

However, I also unfortuantely have a gut feeling that meta-tells and meta-arguments end up being important aspects in games like these.

How so? What effects do you feel they could have on the game?

[Mephansteras]

The Monitor
NUKE9.13: Orangebottle
Orangebottle: Jack AT, Leafsnail, NativeForeigner, Pandarsenic, Shark
Pandarsenic: Shakerag
Shark: IronyOwl, Jim Groovester, Urist Imiknorris, Urist_McArathos
Urist_McArathos: Mysteriousbluepuppet, NUKE9.13


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday

[Dariush]

By "winging it" I meant that I would continue attacking Shark if his answers made me suspicious, and if not I would stop trying to use his answer to determine his alignment and go back to scumhunting normally. There's a reason why I specifically asked Shark that question - I thought that he would be the most likely player to accidentally let his actual goals slip through in his answer.

So, do you or don't you consider using 'threats' instead of 'scum' a suspicious answer?

Is there a reason why you're ignoring Irony and Orangebottle?

I missed Irony's question and still can't find OB's.

...Did you really just go through the thread looking for everything addressed to me? Are you that desperate to get my attention off yourself, Urist I?

So that's dependent on whether the question is actually stupid or not, and not their impression of it at the time?

It's dependent on both, or rather whether the reality and the impression coincide.

[Dariush]

Gah, there it is. Dark forum theme really dulls the bolded font, especially in the middle of a sentence.

Dariush, do you have any ideas?

Shark is a new player who hasn't seen neither of us three in a game and probably doesn't really grasp the concept of RVS. For all he knows, you just attacked me from the get-go for a really shitty reason.

Jim, why did you put the fourth vote on Shark while he's being replaced?

[Urist Imiknorris]

So, do you or don't you consider using 'threats' instead of 'scum' a suspicious answer?

I consider it vague enough to warrant further inquiry.

...Did you really just go through the thread looking for everything addressed to me? Are you that desperate to get my attention off yourself, Urist I?

Both of the questions you didn't answer were brought up after my previous post. I saw them as I was reading the thread and noticed that you didn't respond to them.

Toaster, Jokerman: Why aren't you voting? Who do you suspect?

[NativeForeigner]

Been busy with holiday stuff at my family's, as a result, this game hasn't been getting the attention it deserves. That'll change, soon. Regardless, I'm content with the placement of my vote for obvious reasons.

[Toaster]

Native:

Been busy with holiday stuff at my family's, as a result, this game hasn't been getting the attention it deserves. That'll change, soon. Regardless, I'm content with the placement of my vote for obvious reasons.

You're content with lynching someone for not answering your question immediately?  Even though he has now answered the question, he is still doomed to die?


Urist I:  I had just unvoted, and was trying to shake out some leads before I committed to a vote.  Right now, Jim hasn't yet responded to address my concerns, and I'm trying to determine Native's motives.


Urist_McA/Dariush:  Fair enough.

[IronyOwl]

Dariush:

So that's dependent on whether the question is actually stupid or not, and not their impression of it at the time?

It's dependent on both, or rather whether the reality and the impression coincide.

How so?

Also, "How did you miss this?" was a question. Now it's "How did you miss both of these plus that other thing?" though.


Nuke:

I was asking Shark whether he was town in order to get a better read of him; if I too reckoned Shark was scum, it would be silly to berate McArathos for sharing that opinion.

So you're defending your earlier question on Shark by just now chainsawing him, which somehow justifies it after the fact.

Mind explaining this?

[Shakerag]

Shakerag:

However, I also unfortuantely have a gut feeling that meta-tells and meta-arguments end up being important aspects in games like these.

How so? What effects do you feel they could have on the game?

Well, again, it's mostly a gut feeling.  I can imagine a scenario like: A player acts in a particular way one game.  To a new player, he/she doesn't seem to be doing anything noteworthy, but another player who has been in several games with the first player sees this behavior as a departure from their normal playstyle and can make a (possibly) informed decision about their alignment.  If you haven't played with that person before, then you're at a disadvantage.  So I suppose that meta-things could potentially have a significant effect on a game.