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[Sidhien]

This started out just as a suggestion to allow vertical pumping of fluids as an alternative to fps-destroying pump stacks when I realized that medieval-type screw pumps weren't really designed for that. A quick search through wikipedia and I found gear pumps, which seem both suitably dwarven and appropriate for the technology level.

The suggestion is to have two kinds of pumps:

Screw Pump - Same as usual, though possibly only allowing for manual hand operation.

Gear Pump - Must be connected to a power source (no hand operation) and can generate pressure above it's z-level depending on the level of power it is set to consume. To set the power, [q] over and give the order to change it and a mechanic will come along to modify the power consumption.

The gear pump would be able to pump liquid up a z-level for every 10 power. So a pump set to 50 power could pump water or magma up 5 z-levels like so:

Code: [Select]

# #
# #
#~#  <- Goes up to z5
#~#
#~#
#~######
#~~~%% #  <- Gear Pump on z1 consuming 50 power
######~~
This is separate from and doesn't conflict with anything having to do with pipes, which would be more for controlling the flow of liquids whereas pumps simply generate pressure.

This would be a much easier, simpler and more realistic way of pumping up water and magma from the caverns without building a massive tower of these. And in case that sounds undwarfy, there's also the added hazard of not only flooding your fortress from above, but now from below!

[knutor]

How do you propose they create the vacuum?  Gear pumps have to be hermetically sealed.  Not something found in the dark ages.  The blown glassware trade has to evolve, for suction of that kind.  I'd also avoid the naming confusion inherit in adding another Pump, by changing it to something else.  *shrug*  Good idea, that dynamic needs to exist, as the only other is a lag inducer, indeed.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Sidhien]

Hmm... there's plenty examples of medieval pumps using suction so I'm not convinced it would need to be perfectly sealed, but you're right in that those pumps were rarely able to move water higher than 10 - 20 meters. So unless we're willing hand wave by saying "dwarf magic," it's not quite a perfect solution. Then again, if anyone could get it to work, it would be dwarves.

Maybe something with pistons would be more in line with the period?

[knutor]

There is a lot of wasted pressure coming off the booze still.  The brewers should know how to lift a liquid.

[dwarfhoplite]

Why not just make dorfs or pack animals carry/ pull all that water/magma up the stairs in large buckets

[Artanis00]

How do you propose they create the vacuum?  Gear pumps have to be hermetically sealed.  Not something found in the dark ages.  The blown glassware trade has to evolve, for suction of that kind.  I'd also avoid the naming confusion inherit in adding another Pump, by changing it to something else.  *shrug*  Good idea, that dynamic needs to exist, as the only other is a lag inducer, indeed.

Sincerely,
Knutor

Mind if we can get a source on that? I'm no hydraulics engineer, but I'm not seeing anything on the Wikipedia article that says or implies a gear pump will be completely non-functional if it isn't hermetically sealed and my Google searches are returning full of product listings; which, oddly, list hermetically sealed gear pumps explicitly... They probably would not function as well as modern pumps do, sure, but water up a few meters?

On the other hand, machining the parts to micrometer precision... μm, let's just offer for suggestion that gear pumps may need to be built from masterwork or better parts.

As for naming, DF Linux 0.31.25 labels the existing pump as a Screw Pump, so adding another machine labeled Gear Pump hardly seems confusing. Sure, some terminology on the boards and the wiki may need to change (e.g.: Pump Stack -> Screw Pump Stack), but in game would fine.

[antymattar]

Its been suggested before. A lot.

[MonkeyHead]

Its been suggested before. A lot.

Irony.

[peskyninja]

This is not antymattar, Footkerchief kidnapped him and it's using his account.
I don't see any sense in this gear pump, only if it uses pipes and such to transport liquids.

[knutor]

Gear pumps have to be hermetically sealed.

Mind if we can get a source on that?

You betcha.  I'm sorry you didn't find anything.  Did you lookup the meaning of hermetic seals on a dictionary site?  Airtight and Waterproof.  I give ya the reference on the same link as the OP gave.  First sentence under Theory of Operation category. 

As the gears rotate they separate on the intake side of the pump, creating a void and suction which is filled by fluid.

A builder cannot have a void without a hermetic seal, unless of course he's building in a outer space.  Can he?  I was under the impression they couldn't.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I wish Toady would put in some orbital specs in world generation for subtle effects.  Like my secret desire to be the first to launch an elfs caravan into space! 

Any dark age made, washer or stopper is going to rapidly decay under contact with a liquid over any time line.  The repairs to this one seal would take more time than the actual output without current day materials, rubber, adhesives, and spot welding.  Not to mention the hazards inherent in leaks of a dangerous material, magma.

I really can't see making a dozen layered pump stacks for water, can you?  I end up just sending my dwarfs down to drink.  Magma is what we are talking about isn't it?  And a leak in a magma gear pump could be catastrophic.  Game over catastrophic.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[coolio678]

maybe it should increase the power consumption for each level you want pumped up.I mean that it would work like this
1. 10
2. 25
3. 40
4. 55
5. 70

Maybe just so then it could kind of simulate the machine working harder, and so then you can't pump straight out of the magma sea without a crap load of water wheels.

[Artanis00]

Gear pumps have to be hermetically sealed.

Mind if we can get a source on that?

You betcha.  I'm sorry you didn't find anything.  Did you lookup the meaning of hermetic seals on a dictionary site?  Airtight and Waterproof.  I give ya the reference on the same link as the OP gave.  First sentence under Theory of Operation category. 

As the gears rotate they separate on the intake side of the pump, creating a void and suction which is filled by fluid.

I saw that, and yes, I know what hermetic sealing means.

However, the vacuum created is by the gears separating, not a seal. The housing itself doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be good enough to leave some of the vacuum for the liquid. This will, as you note, leave a leak at some part of the gear.

If it's really that much of a problem, how about having the dwarves carve a gear pump--housing, gears and all--out of solid rock?

[Sidhien]

Come to think of it, wouldn't magma leaks just cool and harden, automatically sealing the leak?

Although technically at some point magma would cool and harden anywhere, including inside a screw pump. Past a certain point of realism any kind of magma plumbing just isn't feasible. I guess I'm not so much arguing in favor of a specific pump design as much as just having some kind of rationale for efficient vertical pumping, which is really, really needed.

[antymattar]

Come to think of it, wouldn't magma leaks just cool and harden, automatically sealing the leak?

huh?

Come to think of it, wouldn't magma leaks just cool and harden, automatically sealing the leak?

no way!...

Come to think of it, wouldn't magma leaks just cool and harden, automatically sealing the leak?

[/size]

By God. Dwarven sentient magma nano technology!!!

[Wayward Device]

It was inevitable that we'd get there eventually.

Also, viz the whole realism of dark ages gear pumps moving magma, the current most commonly used alternative is to use Archimedes screws powered by perpetual motion. Made from wood, if you really need to hammer home the point.