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Author Topic: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising  (Read 29202 times)

Girlinhat

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 10:02:52 pm »

Which would still cause flagship superiority to some degree.  If it's nerfed and fleets matter, then that's cool, but if it becomes "flagship vs flagship and also there's some fighters nearby" then it wouldn't run as smooth.

Flare

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 10:04:16 pm »

Yeah, but even if it's like that, if there's even a marginal ability to edit the files and values of the ships, that can be rebalanced to suit the players' desires.
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Girlinhat

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 10:07:09 pm »

Oh, well certainly.  Once you start modding then the ultimate product is moot.

Flare

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2011, 10:09:51 pm »

Well even in its original form, a massive starship can't be everywhere at once right? A game can be made out of trying to outmaneuver the other starship in a inter-system game of whack-a-mole.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:16:01 pm by Flare »
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Realmfighter

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2011, 10:49:36 pm »

Which would still cause flagship superiority to some degree.  If it's nerfed and fleets matter, then that's cool, but if it becomes "flagship vs flagship and also there's some fighters nearby" then it wouldn't run as smooth.

But if there's no Flagship superiority then why would you even want one? You would be better off with another big ship that is controlled in RTS style that actually stays in formation well. If it's just as powerful as any other equally sized ship, why would you even risk getting into fights with it?

Personally I would like it to be balanced, so if you spent 10k on a giant mothership and fought 10k of smaller ships it would be relatively even so you could go with whichever you liked better.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:51:10 pm by Realmfighter »
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Girlinhat

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2011, 11:04:39 pm »

There's a balance to it, yes, and that's part of being a developer, you've got to balance your games!  On the one hand, if your flagship is overpowered then fleets become pointless.  If your Flagship can wipe a thousand same-tech enemies and survive, then it's overpowered and you've made an RPG/Arcade.  If your Flagship is underpowered, and equal in all ways to a same-tech enemy ship, then your advantage will be piloting skill and you're hopefully smarter than the AI.  While very fun to play the role of "just another ship" it's clear that that's not the goal here, and that your flagship is supposed to have some power behind it.  I think a fair balance might be... 2-4 comparison, depending on difficulty.  If your flagship can go toe-to-toe with 2 (on hard) or 4 (on easy) enemy ships and come out battered and burning, then that's probably a well-balanced setup.  It's reasonable for the enemy to overwhelm you, it gives purpose to your own escorts, yet still gives the player a bit of a power trip, which let's be honest we all enjoy that and that's part of the reason for playing at all.

Flare

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2011, 11:06:27 pm »

Which would still cause flagship superiority to some degree.  If it's nerfed and fleets matter, then that's cool, but if it becomes "flagship vs flagship and also there's some fighters nearby" then it wouldn't run as smooth.

But if there's no Flagship superiority then why would you even want one?

I think she's afraid that the flagship will not only be better than the biggest mass produced ships, but that they would be so overpowered that the flagships trump everything else with the exception of other flagships. This is drawn from the video I think. It would be like Sins of a Solar Empire where the capital ships blow apart masses of smaller ships with ease and without risk.

Edit: Ninja'd

There's a balance to it, yes, and that's part of being a developer, you've got to balance your games!

I don't know about this, I do enjoy some very unbalanced features in games, they may even be the enticing point.

Quote
On the one hand, if your flagship is overpowered then fleets become pointless.  If your Flagship can wipe a thousand same-tech enemies and survive, then it's overpowered and you've made an RPG/Arcade.  If your Flagship is underpowered, and equal in all ways to a same-tech enemy ship, then your advantage will be piloting skill and you're hopefully smarter than the AI.  While very fun to play the role of "just another ship" it's clear that that's not the goal here, and that your flagship is supposed to have some power behind it.

I don't know if this is the case either. Even if flagships can blow everything away, it's still one flagship. Even with the fastest engines, they can't be in two places at once. The supposed massive amounts of logistics need to maintain the ship are supposedly more vulnerable than the ship itself. If the only counter to a flagship is another flagship, the surrounding fleet will still matter supposing that they're powerful enough to accomplish objectives on their own while the flagship is tied down.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 11:11:59 pm by Flare »
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Girlinhat

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2011, 11:19:30 pm »

That depends on implementation.  If the game takes an "active area" approach then it's moot.  As in, if the living universe is only what's nearby and the rest of the world is in stasis until you approach, then being one flagship is more than enough.  Many games do this to cut back on CPU time - simulating one chunk of space is much easier than tracking fleet movements across the whole galaxy.  It also depends on how maintenance is handled.  If you've got self-repair, then you can lose your homeworld and just fly around bashing enemies.  If you need to periodically dock for repairs, refuel, resupply, and re-ordinance, then infrastructure will be very important and managing your whole empire will be a concern.  In this case, it all depends on how the dev is pushing flagship superiority or fleet tactics.  While many things would make sense, the dev is still able to ignore common sense and make the game how they want.  If a dev chooses to make a flagship more powerful than an empire, then that's how it is, or the devs can decide that 2 fighters can swarm a flagship because it lacks flak.  It all boils down to the direction the devs want to take, and we're simply lacking that information right now.

zer0sum

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2011, 12:56:53 am »

Hello Folks.  Girlininhat asked me to stop by and I'm happy to do so.

So, StarDrive is my game, and I'm very excited to talk about it.  I'll try answer Girlinhat's questions first. I'm going to read through what she's got and post here in a few minutes.  Meanwhile, hello!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 01:16:54 am by zer0sum »
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zer0sum

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2011, 01:04:44 am »

1: Can you design modules? Aurora (by Pentarch, good luck googling "Aurora") is a favorite of many of us, and Aurora does a unique thing, allowing you to design modules themselves. Instead of just unlocking "Lasers lv 2" you instead research laser caliber, wavelength, recharge speed, etc, and then you design and implement the laser, so you can carefully tailor your tech based on your skills and playstyle. Something similar would be astounding, but understandably difficult. Aurora does overstretch the limits of complexity and micromanagement in many places.

StarDrive does not support individual module design, although technically I don't think it would be very difficult.  I'm trying to strike a balance of customization with fun game play.  While I think a lot of players would like the feature you describe, I also think it would turn people off if I made it a core gameplay concept.  That said, my game is highly modifiable.  All of the modules are simple XML files that anyone can edit, and I built the game from the ground up with this in mind.  So adding modules is very simple both for me as a developer and for you as a modder.

2: How important are other ships? We have a collective fear that your flagship will be a powerhouse and nothing else matters. The current teaser shows a flagship fighting what appears to be another flagship with a few fighters nearby. We have no idea how other ships work and how they compare. Is this a "Call of Duty" game where an individual can decimate an army, or is this more balanced to where your flagship is only a bit more powerful than other ships? In other words, will non-flagships play a major role in combat, or will they be background units? Or: Assuming equal tech, how many regular ships would it take to destroy a flagship?

Flagships and regular ships are not in any way different.  You design them all using the same system.  You can get a new flagship any time you want by building a newer, better ship and just designating it as your flagship.  I have considered limiting the amount of times you can change your ship by having a cost associated with doing so. I really want the player to feel ownership of the Flagship.  The only thing that makes your flagship more powerful than other ships is the fact that you are driving it.  Of course, most players are going to reserve their most bad-ass ship for themselves!  Building a high-tech dreadnought is going to take more resources than a lower-tech dreadnought, or a smaller frigate, or what have you.  I am expecting that the players will want to use their most powerful ship as their flagship.

3: Can you design other ships and planets? Again, lack of information, but it's unclear if other ships are made from stock or if you design them yourself. Based on some quotes I'm guessing that you can design every ship, not just your flagship (or leave it to the AI to design?) so you can better make unique and unexpected roles. Similarly, how are planets handled? It sounds, currently, like a vague "this will produce some of this resource" without much concern to what's on the planet. Can you decide what buildings are made and how they act, or do you simply move the slider and things happen?

You can design every ship.  I'm going to cut and paste something on the economy here for you:

The main economic work in StarDrive is the acquisition of new planetary colonies. Colonies produce resources that are simplified into 4 categories: food, production, research, and money. Each resource fills a role. Food is consumed every game “turn” by the colonists on your planet. Insufficient food supply leads to starvation and population shrinkage; sufficient food supply allows population growth. The larger a planet’s population, the more resources it can produce. Production of resources generally is tied to planetary population.

 “Production” is the resource used to build ships and buildings. For instance, a “mine” building will increase the production of a colony; however, you need production to build a mine. Building up a colony from the initial outpost to an industrial juggernaut involves ensuring that the planet has enough food for the population to grow, and enough production to bootstrap your way up.

So, I tried to model colonization of planets somewhat realistically. When you first get to a planet, you have very little with you, and you are not able to produce very much. However, you can accelerate planetary growth by assigning freighters to carry goods throughout your empire. The freighters are largely automated and will bring food, production, and also new colonists to your recently settled worlds.

Your trade network is therefore vital to properly growing your empire. Consequently, defending your trade network (or attacking your opponents’) is absolutely critical. Research is produced at planets as well with research facilities that you build there. You can choose to focus a planet by building higher-level, more expensive research buildings. You can also trade with alien races to acquire tech.

Finally, buildings and ships all cost money for maintenance. You have to have sufficient population to tax for income, and you can also raise money through trade with alien races and by researching economic improvements.
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zer0sum

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2011, 01:10:30 am »

That depends on implementation.  If the game takes an "active area" approach then it's moot.  As in, if the living universe is only what's nearby and the rest of the world is in stasis until you approach, then being one flagship is more than enough.  Many games do this to cut back on CPU time - simulating one chunk of space is much easier than tracking fleet movements across the whole galaxy.  It also depends on how maintenance is handled.  If you've got self-repair, then you can lose your homeworld and just fly around bashing enemies.  If you need to periodically dock for repairs, refuel, resupply, and re-ordinance, then infrastructure will be very important and managing your whole empire will be a concern.  In this case, it all depends on how the dev is pushing flagship superiority or fleet tactics.  While many things would make sense, the dev is still able to ignore common sense and make the game how they want.  If a dev chooses to make a flagship more powerful than an empire, then that's how it is, or the devs can decide that 2 fighters can swarm a flagship because it lacks flak.  It all boils down to the direction the devs want to take, and we're simply lacking that information right now.

The StarDrive universe is fully simulated at all times.  I've spent a lot of time on optimization and the code is very lean at this point.  I also use what's called a profiler all the time.  This shows me exactly which parts of my program eat up CPU cycles, and then I go in and make it more efficient. 

Ship repairs come in a few flavors.  First, every ship has some basic self-repair capability by virtue of having a "cockpit" or "bridge" module installed, where the crew is.  If a ship is not engaged in combat for a period of time, it will begin self repair.

Various repair modules can also be installed, including "damage control" modules, nano-repair modules, and at certain levels regenerating modules (like chitin armor for aliens). 
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zer0sum

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2011, 01:16:33 am »

I'm tempted to say that it'll be a mainly mothership combat.

This. It would be hugely disappointing but there was so much concentration on the "mothership" in there I am very afraid that will pretty much be all there is. Also on ship making: When they talked about needing differing ships for the alium races and the 250 reward I have to seriously wonder if this making of ships is just going to be for your mothership.

Also, any good 4x game needs some interaction with the planets, of which the video demonstrated very little. There was a space station around one, but that is basicly all I saw. I worry that planets will pretty much be treated as resource node.

The planets operate like they did in MOO2, with a few twists.  It's not genre-breaking stuff -- you manage resources, build buildings and ships, and so on.  You can assign planetary governors if you're not interested in managing the planet.  You can choose to make an agricultural planet, industrial, research, a "Core" planet (balanced), or military planet.

The $250 reward ship will be put into the game where it fits.  All ships can be both Flagships and fleetships, there are no restrictions.
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SeaBee

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2011, 02:08:37 am »

Thanks so much for stopping by, zer0sum, this is looking fantastic.
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Girlinhat

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2011, 02:29:18 am »

This does shed a lot of light on a lot of things.  I look forward to flying circles around an enemy dreadnaught and taking it down with a single bomber!  The "flagships are fleetships" is very refreshing, and puts a lot of emphasis on your own piloting skill.  Now I'm just curious how stealth will work, if at all.  Cloaked missile ships are always a favorite of mine.

zer0sum

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Re: StarDrive - a space 4x that is looking very promising
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2011, 12:31:05 pm »

This does shed a lot of light on a lot of things.  I look forward to flying circles around an enemy dreadnaught and taking it down with a single bomber!  The "flagships are fleetships" is very refreshing, and puts a lot of emphasis on your own piloting skill.  Now I'm just curious how stealth will work, if at all.  Cloaked missile ships are always a favorite of mine.

There are two sensor levels: long range, and in-range.  Cloaking devices and jammers will not render your ship invisible to the eye but you will not be able to detect them on your sensors.  So when you're zoomed out into a strategic view, you won't see the stealth ships coming (and neither will the computer).
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