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[monk12]

I thought the type advantages we were going for was Boatborn < Uncarp < Perlihorn < Boatborn? Perlihorn should lose to Boatborn, but win vs Uncarp. "Should" being the operative word there, as the AI is an idiot.

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, you guys are getting it backwards - monk knows what he's talking about. On the other hand, I never noticed the supposed "type advantages" actually being reflected in the initial battle, so its most important that Perlihorn lose more often than it wins, really.

Seriously though, what do people think of the high base happiness + frustration? I think that might make a good balance.

[Darvi]

I thought the type advantages we were going for was Boatborn < Uncarp < Perlihorn < Boatborn? Perlihorn should lose to Boatborn, but win vs Uncarp. "Should" being the operative word there, as the AI is an idiot.

That comparison falls apart when you take into account that Perlihorn isn't a Grass type.

[GlyphGryph]

Oh, but it IS. It's just a really /bad/ grass type, until it actually evolves.

We have two separate things to consider here:
Advantage: Boatborn beats Perlihorn beats Uncarp beats Boatborn
Prime power time:
Boatborn  = Early Game
Uncarp = Mid Game
Perlihorn = Late Game

The initial battle results really don't matter as much as the second battle, after the mons have learned a few more moves, truth be told. And I'm still on record as supporting a near guaranteed loss in the first match, because I have a story thing I like to include where Oak goes through some dramatic process to save the life of the losing pokemon and tells us to be more careful, inidicating to the player that these matches are usually lethal. It doesn't really matter if he saves yours or your opponents, though, but it gives a justification to ignore the loss even in a Nuzlocke. But it does mean we don't really need them balanced for the INITIAL fight. It's the SECOND fight that's important, and they should all have a same-type move by then.

If you recall, I didn't even want to make a Perlihorn victory possible versus boatborn! (no odor sleuth)

[Darvi]

Yeah well thanks to the enemy AI using status (de)buffs instead of attacks, the first battle, in my experience, is nigh-impossible to lose anyway.

[monk12]

I thought the type advantages we were going for was Boatborn < Uncarp < Perlihorn < Boatborn? Perlihorn should lose to Boatborn, but win vs Uncarp. "Should" being the operative word there, as the AI is an idiot.

That comparison falls apart when you take into account that Perlihorn isn't a Grass type.

It evolves into a Grass type, though. The initial idea with Perlihorn starting Normal was that it'd be noticeably weaker than the other two starters without being utterly without hope. The first fight is always kindof a crapshoot, but Perlihorn is the starter you need to have that potion to stand a chance.

Yeah, you guys are getting it backwards - monk knows what he's talking about. On the other hand, I never noticed the supposed "type advantages" actually being reflected in the initial battle, so its most important that Perlihorn lose more often than it wins, really.

Seriously though, what do people think of the high base happiness + frustration? I think that might make a good balance.

Frustration's Power = (255 - Happiness) / 2.5

If we're shooting for a base power of, say, 20 (STAB shouldn't apply) then Perlihorn's Happiness would need to be... 205. So yeah, we could do that. If we DO go that route, maybe make Return (which deals MORE damage the happier the mon is) the big bad end move of an unevolved Perlihorn?

Alternately, Absorb, which is pretty terrible without STAB but hints at the future typing of the Perlihorn line.

FAKEEDIT: NINJAS!

I dislike making things clearly impossible to win unless it is obscenely so (admittedly a common trope in RPGS, especially of the J variety.) Besides, it kinda works against the "your Rival is the Butt Monkey" thing we've got working.

[GlyphGryph]

Maybe we're thinking about this the wrong way. Instead of changing perlihorn's attack, lets switch odor sleuth with fake tears. Boom, now Boatborn wins again. Perlihorn is supposed to be weak at the beginning and weak versus boatborn - I'm okay with this!

Perlihorn will usually beat uncarp, though, because of the higher attack. However, since the cpu can be stupid, it's not guaranteed. (since uncarp is better earlier than Perlihorn, its okay)

Uncarp, meanwhile, will usually beat Boatborn, however, its not guaranteed (because boatborn is better earlier than uncarp)

So balancing both factors you have:

Perlihorn ties uncarp (type bonus vs early power bonus)
Uncarp ties Boatborn (type bonus vs early power bonus)
Boatboarb always beats perlihorn (type bonus plus early power bonus)

Even for the "your rival is the butt monkey" thing, I don't think it's too big a deal - the first fight is solely so the Prof can lecture you about how these things can easily turn lethal. It's not a "real" fight, and there's no actual consequences. That stuff will happen in the SECOND fight.

We could have the rival genuinely concerned about your pokemon's health if he wins, though! (Or we could simply always have him pick the weaker mon! Hah, inversion!) Instead of ever making it impossible to win, picking boatborn makes it impossible to LOSE. And it really reinforces Boatborn being the "early powerhouse" mon.

I'm actually really really liking this idea now...

[Darvi]

It evolves into a Grass type, though.

I'm aware of that. That's exactly what makes it problematic, because it benefits from STAB.

Instead of changing perlihorn's attack, lets switch odor sleuth with fake tears.

I fail to see how that makes any difference.

[GlyphGryph]

It makes it impossible for perlihorn to damage boatborn. Meaning guaranteed loss.

[Darvi]

The problem is that Uncarp can hardly win either.

[GlyphGryph]

Against boatborn?

Well, we could always start Uncarp with pursuit or water gun or something instead.

Although really he should be able to hold his own against boatborn.

[Darvi]

Against Perlihorn. Boatborn is just fine because you're the one using it in that case.

[GlyphGryph]

Uncarp is supposed to lose against Perlihorn.

Again:
Boatborn always beats perlihorn usually beats uncarp sometimes beats boatborn.

[Bluerobin]

Could we just make Perlihorn Psychic instead of Normal? It'd make it so Uncarp could do some extra damage once it gets it's Dark attacks (unfortunately), but it might be easier than fiddling with moves.

[Darvi]

Boatborn is supposed to lose against Perlihorn.

Again:
Boatborn always beats perlihorn usually beats uncarp sometimes beats boatborn.

Sense, you make none.