Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23

Author Topic: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]  (Read 19237 times)

Heron TSG

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Seal Goddess
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #315 on: December 31, 2011, 11:13:04 pm »

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Logged

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
The Artist Formerly Known as Barbarossa TSG

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #316 on: January 01, 2012, 12:15:19 am »

December 31st, 2011: The Day America Died.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

DrKillPatient

  • Bay Watcher
  • The yak falls infinitely
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #317 on: January 02, 2012, 12:57:22 am »

And yet no one notices, of course. I hope it will be reviewed or something and eventually revised or repealed, but somehow I doubt that will happen; especially when anyone who suggests that the bill is flawed could be... *gasp*... a terrorist.

Say, does this bill only cover people in America, or does it include anyone anywhere? I heard somewhere that it gave permission to detain anyone in the world. That would certainly foil my plan to flee the US (probably to the EU) once I finish my education. I don't have the money to lobby the politicians into sensibility, so I don't have another choice, really... I feel as if the US government is declaring war on its own citizens. I actually don't feel safe in the US now because I disagree (peacefully, of course) with how the government is run.
Logged
"Frankly, if you're hanging out with people who tell you to use v.begin() instead of &v[0], you need to rethink your social circle."
    Scott Meyers, Effective STL

I've written bash scripts to make using DF easier under Linux!

DJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #318 on: January 02, 2012, 09:55:37 am »

You could flee to Russia. I don't think Putin would take it well if American soldiers tried arresting people in his country.
Logged
Urist, President has immigrated to your fortress!
Urist, President mandates the Dwarven Bill of Rights.

Cue magma.
Ah, the Magma Carta...

!!dwarf!!

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #319 on: January 02, 2012, 12:37:19 pm »

So there's a lot of misconceptions about the NDAA - long and short of it is that it does not authorize the indefinite detention of American citizens. And no, I don't care what Glenn Greenwald says. His reading of the statute has some massive holes in it - and it only works if you ignore 1021(e) in relation to the rest of the bill.

The NDAA specifically states (in 1021(e)) that existing due process law is unaffected by the NDAA.

Background on due process law: Court cases from Boumedienne, Hamdi, and Hamdan: The Supreme Court ruled that due process cannot be taken away if:

   1.

      You're a citizen captured anywhere in the world - like John Walker Lindh (American Taliban guy). This is based on Fourth Amendment due process protection. Or
   2.

      You're a foreigner captured in an American jurisdiction - like the Underwear Bomber (based on the Fourteenth Amendment).

So 1021(e) says that the NDAA does not modify existing law on the detention of US citizens. Which law is this? Due process law. More specifically, Boumedienne, Hamdi, and Hamdan (and to a great extent Ex Parte Milligan). These cases mandate due process for any American citizen, even when captured abroad. Due process is also mandated for non-citizens if they're captured on American soil (or an American jurisdiction). Ex Parte Milligan also precludes the use of military tribunals on citizens if civilian courts are open.

Boumedienne makes it clear that habeas is available to anyone held in American custody, and that if habeas is suspended, there needs to be a workable alternative to allow detainees to challenge their custody. Habeas is related to, but distinct from, due process. Habeas is the right an individual has to challenge her detention. Due process is the burden the government must bear to impose detention or punishment. Habeas can be suspended because of a national emergency, but the NDAA, the Patriot Act, and the AUMF have not done so. So habeas is untouched and available to anyone in American custody. But back to due process.

1021 also only applies to two kinds of people

   1.

      A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
   2.

      A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners.

If you think "substantially supported" or "associated forces" is too broad, keep in mind that these groups also have to be engaged in hostilities against the United States. So this exempts people who innocently/unwittingly associate with al-Qaeda or Taliban members (the support isn't substantial enough). It also exempts people who support groups that aren't engaged in hostilities against the US, or didn't help with/plan 9/11.

And even if you did associate with them, if you're an American citizen your due process rights are never suspended. Ever. Not even under the NDAA. The government has to produce enough evidence to convict you beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise you go free. You can always challenge your detention in court since the NDAA does not suspend habeas corpus. Remember that due process is a constitutional right that cannot be suspended by statute. 1021(e) makes it clear that the NDAA does not affect existing due process law.

Also, believe it or not, you don't lose your citizenship by being accused of supporting al-Qaeda or deemed a terrorist. The government will have to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt before citizenship is stripped or any other punishment is imposed. Edit to add: someone pointed out to me in the comments that the Eighth Amendment (through Trop v. Dulles) doesn't allow natural-born citizens to be stripped of citizenship as punishment.

The indefinite detention power in the NDAA only applies to foreign fighters captured during hostilities. How is this justified? Under the laws of war, a sovereign nation has the right to deprive its enemies of personnel and materiel for the duration of hostilities. It's the same rationale that allows countries to hold prisoners of war without trying them. (It wouldn't make sense to try an enemy soldier for following the lawful orders of his superiors).

The problem here is that al-Qaeda and the Taliban aren't sovereign nations, and it isn't clear whether their fighters are following lawful orders. This is a gray area - and the NDAA deals with it by giving the military the option of turning over captured fighters to their home nations for prosecution under their criminal systems. They can also be brought here to America and tried as well. Or they can be held as prisoners of war and treated accordingly until hostilities end.

The other problem is the number of detainees at Gitmo that the United States cannot/will not release because (1) the detainees will probably go back to terrorism, but we cannot try them after the Bush administration tortured information out of them (2) they don't want to go back because they fear torture or reprisal (3) no one will take them in. This issue is complicated, but outside the scope of the NDAA itself.

Third problem: when will hostilities end? Easy answer is "when Congress says so." But that doesn't really solve the problem I stated above. It's also beyond the scope of the NDAA as well.

TL:DR: NDAA doesn't take away your due process rights, nor does it allow for indefinite detention. How do I know? As a black man, I make it my business to know when/how the government does its arresting. I also read the fucking bill.

Edit: copypasta
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 12:40:23 pm by !!dwarf!! »
Logged

palsch

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #320 on: January 02, 2012, 12:54:20 pm »

Just want to give credit for that copypasta above.

Now the obligatory Lawfare links. These are still the most detailed I've found. They have even hosted the best counterpoints on their site.

First, Obama's signing statement. It's interesting to see the administration's reading of the bill is along the "this bill does absolutely nothing" lines.

The next two parts are pretty involved. The break the bill down to what is actually good and bad. Although for me the 'good' is probably more neutral, with the exception that at least now it's in Congress and part of the national discourse rather than being backroom legal discussions for wonks. They then have an incredibly detailed, legalise rich look at the detention language and the rule of law. A lot of it is spent looking at highly academic points of recent legal history which are what define exactly how detention works, both before and after this bill. It's messy and this bill doesn't really clear anything up.
Logged

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #321 on: January 07, 2012, 03:16:29 am »

Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

dragonshardz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:PONY:ACCEPTABLE]
    • View Profile
    • Steam Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #322 on: January 07, 2012, 05:23:48 am »

My main problem with both NDAA and SOPA was that even I could find was to misuse the powers granted in the bills.

I can't pick out a specific section in SOPA, but that's irrelevant. My main problem with NDAA is the ambiguity of the section dealing with "belligerent acts" - 1031 (e), I think?

I know that "belligerent acts" are defined as, you know, engaging in hostilities with the USA, but even that is ambiguously defined. I can easily imagine some politician trying to use that section as justification for persecuting, say, the Occupy movement - and succeeding, too.

THAT is why the NDAA scares me.

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #323 on: January 07, 2012, 06:03:22 am »

Colbert: Catch 2012
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Agdune

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #324 on: January 07, 2012, 09:25:35 am »

I miss the days of the internet when being outside of the US didn't result in blocked videos. God forbid I see a clip from a show that doesn't run here; that could potentially end in my not providing ad revenue for whichever crappy TV channel ends up buying the rights to the show at some indeterminate point in the future (even though I don't watch TV either).

eugh.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 09:36:13 am by Agdune »
Logged
I'm Mr. Cellophane

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #325 on: January 07, 2012, 10:19:04 am »

I'm from Belgium, and I can see the video easily.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Reudh

  • Bay Watcher
  • Perge scelus mihi diem perficias.
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #326 on: January 07, 2012, 11:08:11 am »

I'm in Australia, and that video is blocked for me.

EmperorNuthulu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Likes nu's for their blueness, oh and that mohawk!
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #327 on: January 07, 2012, 11:09:36 am »

UK here, blocked for me too.
Logged
Blargh.

Svarte Troner

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #328 on: January 07, 2012, 11:16:14 am »

flee the US (probably to the EU) once I finish my education.

Call me up when you're ready.
Logged
That metal guy that pops up sometimes in places
To put it simply, Dwarf Fortress is the Black Metal of video games.

PTTG??

  • Bay Watcher
  • Kringrus! Babak crulurg tingra!
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nowherepublishing.com
Re: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]
« Reply #329 on: January 09, 2012, 11:42:57 am »

I've got to get a TOR node set up... and look into kidnapping cell phone network engineers to build an underground radio network...
Logged
A thousand million pool balls made from precious metals, covered in beef stock.
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23