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Author Topic: United State Govt. drops pretense of freedom [NDAA PASSED]  (Read 19943 times)

Darvi

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #165 on: December 09, 2011, 02:27:44 pm »

Isn't shit like that a warcrime or something?
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Phmcw

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #166 on: December 09, 2011, 02:28:39 pm »

This is a complete disregard for humanity itself, not even the military. And Tuesday for US administration.
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DJ

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #167 on: December 09, 2011, 02:29:42 pm »

Are they actively trying to provoke the mid-ranking officers into staging a coup?
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Aqizzar

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #168 on: December 09, 2011, 02:34:46 pm »

now this

To be fair, it's not like this is some government policy proposal.  For whatever unfathomable reason, body-transport and disposal seems to attract some boneheaded people.  Every couple of years there's another story like this, of soldiers' bodies being shipped in cardboard boxes or improperly disposed of.  I genuinely choose to believe it's a personnel problem, because I don't see how fucking around could be helping anybody but the guys actually working there, certainly not the military itself.

And for people thinking it's a "hiding loses" ploy, that's just ridiculous.
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Phmcw

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #169 on: December 09, 2011, 02:41:07 pm »

In the senate hate your gut serie : You're a female in the military and you get raped on duty? Pay for your abortion, because fuck you.
Yes a civilian wouldn't have to, so it's specifically because we hate you.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 02:44:15 pm by Phmcw »
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palsch

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2011, 02:50:53 pm »

OK, I'm going to take another swing at this.

The bill doesn't seem to change anything from the current situation, except for bringing the debate into the light.

Previously the discussion over whether the US could indefinitely detain people, including citizens, was taking place entirely off the board. It was administration legal advice and memos with no congressional oversight. There was (and is) judicial review, but the current Supreme Court has a deferential tendency towards administrative policy where there isn't a clear legal line.

That is, because Congress hadn't defined the limits, the administration was free to decide what those limits were as long as they could get them past (or around) the court system. The only real challenges possible were constitutional and those were recently strongly limited.

With this bill Congress at least define and limit the scope of the program, if not reign it in completely (a political impossibility).

Congress have now outlined pretty much the current detainee policy in a law. As far as I can tell not a single extra power has been granted that the administration hadn't already claimed and exercised.

There are actually two get-out clauses in the law that say exactly that. The first, from the original body of the law;
Quote
    Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
The second, from the Feinstein ammendment that was successfully passed (99-1 - after her original was rejected she submitted a more subtle modification that only Kyl objected to);
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    Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens or lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
That amendment goes further than a previous section exempting citizens and legal aliens acting within the USA from mandatory military detention, which is the really nasty part of this bill. It requires military detention for captured terrorists unless a national security waver is obtained from Congress. I could really do without that (and another section making closing Guantanamo even harder). Those two points making this bill bad, but those two points aren't getting much play in the public discussions.

On the points that people are freaking out over this is a decent outline of the situation;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Summary;
It might be slightly easier to argue that the US military can detail citizens captured overseas, although this law isn't clear let alone explicit on the matter. However, such detention is already legal under current SC precedent.

Detention within the USA is entirely unchanged from the current situation, which is pretty murky.

What really scares the crap out of me in this situation is how many civil liberty types and progressive liberals are only just noticing this and completely taking these proposals the wrong way. It's as though military detention is a new initiative of this congress rather than an ongoing and murky legal minefield that's been developing for a decade now.

There is a danger in somewhat legitimising detainment in this manner, but outright banning it isn't going to happen. Congress entirely ignoring it and not exercising any oversight is somewhat worse in my view. At least formalising what is happening now and marking out the areas that are murky is going to help with moving forwards. Plus now that everyone is shitting themselves maybe some motivation to fix this will come from the public.
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sluissa

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2011, 02:51:59 pm »

The way I heard it. The soldier bodies thing was a case of A: Families telling the military to take care of the bodies for them for whatever their own personal reason, and B: The military passing it off to a civilian contractor without giving the contractor any real oversight. Which, honestly, shouldn't really be needed. There's nothing really all that complicated about the job, they just chose the stupid way of dealing with it, for one reason or another. If the military paid me to go replace all the burnt out light bulbs in a building, they shouldn't need to send someone along with me to watch me do it.
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PTTG??

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #172 on: December 14, 2011, 04:01:37 pm »

I suspect Obama won't veto the bill. There is a good chance he could get away with it, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but still.

What I want to know is, if he does fail to veto it, will Democrat voters even care? Will they continue to insist that he's somehow better than "the other side?"

As I said, if he does veto it, I won't be too surprised, but it will change my mind about him a bit.
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Luke_Prowler

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #173 on: December 14, 2011, 05:05:10 pm »

What I want to know is, if he does fail to veto it, will Democrat voters even care? Will they continue to insist that he's somehow better than "the other side?"
Dude, have you seen the Republican candidates? There are Orks that would make better politicians
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nenjin

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #174 on: December 14, 2011, 05:08:41 pm »

It's statements like that, that can cause a man to lose a whole day to photoshop.
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Dsarker

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #175 on: December 14, 2011, 05:08:53 pm »

I'd vote for Ghazghkul Mag Thraka over all the other candidates in the US. At least with the orks, you know the currency is fair.
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nenjin

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #176 on: December 14, 2011, 05:09:35 pm »

Dakka is one of the most stable, widely recognizable assets in the world....
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Dsarker

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #177 on: December 14, 2011, 05:10:59 pm »

And everyone getz da same amount of teef!
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[Dsarker is] a good for nothing troll.
You do not convince me. You rationalize your actions and because the result is favorable you become right.
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sluissa

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #178 on: December 14, 2011, 11:20:16 pm »

Only system of government where red tape makes things happen faster.
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Realmfighter

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Re: United State Senate drops pretense of liking citizens [It got worse]
« Reply #179 on: December 15, 2011, 12:39:53 am »

Only system of government where red tape makes things happen faster.

Please take me now
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