Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Loud Whispers]

You seem to have mixed up one letter, Kobolds are the annoying little thieves that frequently ambush dogs, not some sort of lizard people
Also, I don't quite get the whole war part, it seems a bit out of the flow of conversation (unless you're replying to another post in one of the first few pages).

Oh, and the nature of "war" isn't "to pillage"...Wars are fought for various reasons....SELDOM over resources

True, but why is this important? D:

(indeed, more wars have been fought in the name of God than for any other reason.  And not just a Christian God either, others go to war for their Gods as well).

This could turn into a particularly lengthy topic, war is never simple, and there have been rarely wars fought in the sole name of religion. But when it does...

DF does "war" well.  It is most often started over a difference in opinion (as with the elves and cutting down trees) between species/races/civilizations.

It also does religious war

If you don't have enough resources, you're not going to go to war against a society that has MORE than you, because it would be absolute suicide.

Ancient Greece? Feudal China? Feudal Europe? WWII Japan? Wars for resource fought by people who wanted said resources/knew they would likely be defeated :/

That portrayal of war is about as stupid as you can get while trying to pose as "intellectual".  The point of war is also often portrayed in the wrong light.

Is there ever a true way to portray war? War being what it is is never straightforward, so it's impossible to view it from one spectrum.

It isn't about "killing people and breaking things".

Some wars have been.

If you have to kill people to do it, then you kill them.  If you have to destroy things to do it, then you do.

DF players would likely disagree
Blood for the blood everything anyone?

War is for the sake of getting the enemy to do what you want, not for the sake of simply wiping you out.

I think we all know too well that some people really want war to wipe people out :/
Genocide in DF? That's an interesting idea, have a noble so angry that they actively seek to kill an entire civilisation!

[Tai_MT]

You seem to have mixed up one letter, Kobolds are the annoying little thieves that frequently ambush dogs, not some sort of lizard people
Also, I don't quite get the whole war part, it seems a bit out of the flow of conversation (unless you're replying to another post in one of the first few pages).

Oh, and the nature of "war" isn't "to pillage"...Wars are fought for various reasons....SELDOM over resources

True, but why is this important? D:

(indeed, more wars have been fought in the name of God than for any other reason.  And not just a Christian God either, others go to war for their Gods as well).

This could turn into a particularly lengthy topic, war is never simple, and there have been rarely wars fought in the sole name of religion. But when it does...

DF does "war" well.  It is most often started over a difference in opinion (as with the elves and cutting down trees) between species/races/civilizations.

It also does religious war

If you don't have enough resources, you're not going to go to war against a society that has MORE than you, because it would be absolute suicide.

Ancient Greece? Feudal China? Feudal Europe? WWII Japan? Wars for resource fought by people who wanted said resources/knew they would likely be defeated :/

That portrayal of war is about as stupid as you can get while trying to pose as "intellectual".  The point of war is also often portrayed in the wrong light.

Is there ever a true way to portray war? War being what it is is never straightforward, so it's impossible to view it from one spectrum.

It isn't about "killing people and breaking things".

Some wars have been.

If you have to kill people to do it, then you kill them.  If you have to destroy things to do it, then you do.

DF players would likely disagree
Blood for the blood everything anyone?

War is for the sake of getting the enemy to do what you want, not for the sake of simply wiping you out.

I think we all know too well that some people really want war to wipe people out :/
Genocide in DF? That's an interesting idea, have a noble so angry that they actively seek to kill an entire civilisation!

To be honest, they're spelled the same.  I just have trouble spelling mythical creatures because their root words often aren't born of Anglo-saxon words to begin with.  Kobolds may be "spirits" in terms of the actual word, but in popular media, they've typically become beasts or lizard-people.  Depends on what you would like to use for source material.  In any case, I doubt the "Kobolds" of DF are "trickster house spirits" either.  In DF, the only description we get of them is that they have yellow eyes, pointy ears, and are "squat humanoids".  This leaves it WIDELY open to interpretation.  Though, admittedly...  Most DF players would classify a Kabold as some kind of Elf.  Just saying...  They COULD be lizard people, since there's no descriptor to say they AREN'T.  As with all fantasy, lizards could perhaps have pointy ears.  Fantasy and magic go hand in hand.  The yellow eyes certainly fit with some species of lizard.  I dunno, maybe they're not the lizard-folk I imagine.  Maybe you prefer them differently.  I just want them to have a more rich culture than what they've got.  Instead of being just a "horde of bandits that resemble elves", a "notable culture that worships beings of power who crave treasures and trinkets".  The only thing that really makes them NOT "lizard people" is to go look at the raws for them.  They don't have scales, for certain.  But I dont' think anything bipedal does.  However, if you're not looking through the raws (and casual gamers like me typically don't), there's no description that says they DON'T have scales.  I don't know, I just have a problem with a race entirely devoted to kleptomania for no real reason what-so-ever.  Especially at the rate they steal...  They'd be dead (in real world standards, or any measure of realism) in about a generation no matter who they stole from due to their debilitating weakness.  I'd like SOME MEASURE of reason behind them, other than to simply be annoying before being absolutely obliterated once you get war dogs.  Most fortresses never even have them pose any kind of threat.  Indeed seldom is the case in which a Kobold gets off of my map with an item.  And if it does, it's an item an invader brought that I haven't stockpiled yet.  I tend to picture them more as the D&D kind of race because THAT is more interesting than what we CURRENTLY HAVE in DF as their race.  Maybe the game doesn't have to turn them into lizard people, that's fine.  Maybe they don't even have to use the D&D version of them.  But SOMETHING about them would be more interesting than "dark elf looking creatures with kleptomania who die in one hit from a war dog".  Just sayin'...  To me, the DF Kobolds would be interesting if they worshipped Megabeasts like Dragons, or maybe even Forgotten Beasts.  Give them SOME reason to accrue shiny trinkets.  As of current version, their motivations are completely nonexistant.  They steal because the game demands they do so.  Exciting.

I saw posts about War and Humanity so I felt it needed to be addressed.  I'd go through your post line by line on War, but it would honestly derail the topic further.  For now, you can assume you're right, and I'll assume I'm right.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd like to see a bit more expansion on the minor races, really. It'd be nice if we could interact more with creatures like the plump helmet men, animal men, gnomes and such.

I'd also like this. Maybe some kind of "tribe" type of entity, with random sentients native to various biomes can be better-armed wandering animals, but maybe sending either raiding parties if you kill them, or trading parties if all goes well.

To be honest, they're spelled the same.  I just have trouble spelling mythical creatures because their root words often aren't born of Anglo-saxon words to begin with.  Kobolds may be "spirits" in terms of the actual word, but in popular media, they've typically become beasts or lizard-people.  Depends on what you would like to use for source material.  In any case, I doubt the "Kobolds" of DF are "trickster house spirits" either.  In DF, the only description we get of them is that they have yellow eyes, pointy ears, and are "squat humanoids".  This leaves it WIDELY open to interpretation...

Lizardy kobolds are mainly D&D in origin. I think of DF kobolds as relatives of dromaeosaurs and aves (read: Raptors and birds), which resemble mammals due to pseudofeathers growing in furlike patterns. But that's beside the point.

I saw posts about War and Humanity so I felt it needed to be addressed.  I'd go through your post line by line on War, but it would honestly derail the topic further.  For now, you can assume you're right, and I'll assume I'm right.

I'd like it if wars had specific triggering events (Lincoln being elected, Archduke Ferdinand being assassinated, stuff that doesn't come to mind at the moment, etc), as well as general forces leading to resentment and such, but that's for another thread.

[Tai_MT]

I'd like to see a bit more expansion on the minor races, really. It'd be nice if we could interact more with creatures like the plump helmet men, animal men, gnomes and such.

I'd also like this. Maybe some kind of "tribe" type of entity, with random sentients native to various biomes can be better-armed wandering animals, but maybe sending either raiding parties if you kill them, or trading parties if all goes well.

To be honest, they're spelled the same.  I just have trouble spelling mythical creatures because their root words often aren't born of Anglo-saxon words to begin with.  Kobolds may be "spirits" in terms of the actual word, but in popular media, they've typically become beasts or lizard-people.  Depends on what you would like to use for source material.  In any case, I doubt the "Kobolds" of DF are "trickster house spirits" either.  In DF, the only description we get of them is that they have yellow eyes, pointy ears, and are "squat humanoids".  This leaves it WIDELY open to interpretation...

Lizardy kobolds are mainly D&D in origin. I think of DF kobolds as relatives of dromaeosaurs and aves (read: Raptors and birds), which resemble mammals due to pseudofeathers growing in furlike patterns. But that's beside the point.

I saw posts about War and Humanity so I felt it needed to be addressed.  I'd go through your post line by line on War, but it would honestly derail the topic further.  For now, you can assume you're right, and I'll assume I'm right.

I'd like it if wars had specific triggering events (Lincoln being elected, Archduke Ferdinand being assassinated, stuff that doesn't come to mind at the moment, etc), as well as general forces leading to resentment and such, but that's for another thread.

I do like the idea of the OTHER minor races getting some better treatment.  If nothing else, some minor structures for them would be interesting (like campsites).  Maybe even some minor social structure to them.

I've honestly seen Kobolds tackled a number of ways.  Including one way in Champions of Norrath where they are little more than hump-backed dogs.  Of all the ways they've been portrayed, the "scaly lizard people" is honestly the one I like best.  I never even saw them as scaly lizard people until a couple years ago when I started D&D.  But it honestly works for me.  They're fleshed out pretty well in that game and look pretty convincing, so they're my favorite interpretation of the creature by far.  I'm not even sure how they're portrayed in ADOM, though I think it's likely the same way.  I've just seen a lot of different interpretations of the same critter before.  I just prefer 'em scaly and Dragon worshipping.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I wonder how well it would work to make kobolds as something evolved from the small, fast, predatory types of dinosaurs? They could be warm-blooded but scaley, with feathers but no wings (although subspecies who fly or glide are always possible), and a handful, to several extremely old, but also extremely static, stable, and primitive-seeming; civilizations that would maybe have access to plenty of food and basic resources--to keep them alive and well through Worldgen, and some interesting/Fun cultural things, and knowledge of lots of poisons, medicines, Fun facts, etc.

As the game grows, they could then grow right along with it, since it can be supposed that they'd have learned quite a few magical secrets, had many encounters with even the strangest monsters, undead, and HFS, and might have access to potent artifacts, horrific guardian beasts, truly bizarre gods and god-pretenders from out of the very dawn of time itself, and plants, medicines, poisons, and treasures that simply can be found nowhere else.   

That way, they could have real exoticism, and be opened up for a lot of creativity and usefulness within the game, and that balance, against the areas in which they are primitive, would lift them out of the dullness of the abject poverty they're currently in. It would also make them fun trading partners, and a lot more interesting as either enemies, or even allies.

I admit I'm taking a few (but obvious) nods from the Slaan in Warhammer, but there's a great deal that can be done with the basic idea of "MesoAmerican Lizardmen", and in my opinion, Warhammer is right up there with Dungeons & Dragons in time-honoured fantasy establishments.
And yes, they themselves were inspired by real-world folklore, so no creative toes are being stepped on here.

Unlike the Slaan, I see kobolds as being individualistic, and independent.Young kobolds would be born into a world of endless predators and enemies, and the society they're born into would be too old and too jaded to give fools and weaklings very much encouragement.

They would be anything but a single civilization with a single broad goal.

As mentioned briefly above, I envision maybe as many as a dozen or more small but heavily populated, inward-looking and introverted, citystates, Dwarf-like in their paranoia, and skill with (aboveground atleast) stonework/architecture, and with a strong tendancy towards meritocracies. Each might contain scores of cultural subgroups, and even several sub-species, and there would be constant, low-level infighting between them. Rule by HFS wouldn't be rare, but HFS wouldn't be held in anything like the awe and fear that might hold a goblin city in check. Kobolds have been there, done that, and as a species, they've even outlasted gods. Monarchies and dictatorships would be the exception, with powerful councils of experienced elders a general rule.

Finally, I see kobolds as potentially immortal--and if they live long enough, eventually transforming into dragons. This might only occur after a thousand years, or something likem that, to keep the numbers down.
Dragons, once transformed, would forever exile themselves from the kobold civilization Proper-they'd become highly territorial and aggressive, would kill other kobolds on sight, to protect their own extremely valuable genetic material, and would also begin hibernating for long periods of time-but it would only be these matured beings who would mate and produce offspring.
The few strongest survivors (once born, the kobolds would fight among themselves, killing off the weak) would then, something a bit like sea turtles, flee the Dragon Lair, and hope to eventually find refuge within the gates of the kobold citadels.