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[knutor]

I bet this parameter at world generation, called the PRNG critter seed has something to do with the number of fertile females in a civilization.  Something in world generation must consider population growth rates, or we would have Elfs springing up from behind every bush. 

This is something I can play around with in the pocket worlds.  I've often looked at the population stats and wondered how some worlds can generate almost double the amount of entities in the same period, and other.. well, not so many.  Must have ugly women in those worlds.  Game must have rolled a bunch of stinken 7s for the PRNG seed.  3s and 9s are sexy, but 7s, yuck! 

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Helgoland]

I only read the first few pages of this thread, so this might have been mentioned before. Still:
Rousseau (AFAIK) said that most animals have something that makes them especially apt to live where they live. This something could be shells, wings, gills etc.
Humans on the other hand are remarkably fragile: We do not have great strength, speed, or resistance to the environment, and our senses, well, suck. The only thing that is special about humans is our capacity to adapt to various environments and shape the surroundings to our advantage. Humans do not fit their environment, they fit the environment to themselves. This - if we're going to go with the race "clichées" (which is - in my opinion - perfecttly reasonable) could be reflected in the game as well If elves are the hippies and dwarves the smiths, humans should be the farmers and cattle-raisers, mechanics and inventors.
Subdue the earth!

[dwarfhoplite]

Tolkien had an interesting view on the interaction between dorfs and humans.

"In The Silmarillion, the Dwarves are described as shorter and stockier than Elves and Men, able to withstand both heat and cold. Though they are mortal, Dwarves have an average lifespan of 250 years"

"Since they lived underground, Dwarves did not grow their own food supplies if they could help it, and usually obtained food through trade with Elves and Men. In the essay "Of Dwarves and Men" in The Peoples of Middle-earth it is written that Dwarven and human communities often formed relationships where the Men were the prime suppliers of food, farmers and herdsmen, while the Dwarves supplied tools and weapons, road-building and construction work"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)

Perhaps Dwarfs' farming should be inefficient to encourage trading with caravans.

[Babylon]

Tolkien had an interesting view on the interaction between dorfs and humans.

"In The Silmarillion, the Dwarves are described as shorter and stockier than Elves and Men, able to withstand both heat and cold. Though they are mortal, Dwarves have an average lifespan of 250 years"

"Since they lived underground, Dwarves did not grow their own food supplies if they could help it, and usually obtained food through trade with Elves and Men. In the essay "Of Dwarves and Men" in The Peoples of Middle-earth it is written that Dwarven and human communities often formed relationships where the Men were the prime suppliers of food, farmers and herdsmen, while the Dwarves supplied tools and weapons, road-building and construction work"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)

Perhaps Dwarfs' farming should be inefficient to encourage trading with caravans.

I think this would be a good idea.  It would make trading far more attractive.

One way would be to have the productivity of farm plots degrade as they were farmed, after all the dwarves farm without light, which means that even pig tails and cave wheat and such are probably some sort of mushroom.  Mushrooms don't replenish the soil in the way that plants do, they require inputs.

[C27]

I only read the first few pages of this thread, so this might have been mentioned before. Still:
Rousseau (AFAIK) said that most animals have something that makes them especially apt to live where they live. This something could be shells, wings, gills etc.

Also Darwin, who actually had evidence and the scientific method to back it up. Rousseau was a smart guy too though.

Humans on the other hand are remarkably fragile: We do not have great strength, speed, or resistance to the environment, and our senses, well, suck. The only thing that is special about humans is our capacity to adapt to various environments and shape the surroundings to our advantage.

Actually, humans do have one physical advantage over practically all other animals - we have extremely good overland endurance. The African bushmen don't chase herds of prey at a run, nor do they rely on ambush. They don't need to. They just walk at the animals, hour after hour, day and night, until the prey collapses from exhaustion. This is a quite useful strategy, since it means they prey can't fight back effectively and injure the hunters - since humans have long lives and slow reproduction, it's a lot more sensible than hunting like wolves and risking a hoof in the face.

[Loud Whispers]

On a hot day, an average male man can outrun a race horse.

We're just awesome like that.

[Babylon]

Humans breed a lot faster than elves.

Dwarfie,  you know this on who's authority?  *smile*  I'd be interested in knowing birth rates, between the major civ races.  Legacy mode has so much birth info, something should be able to be compiled, somehow.

I thought Elfs grew on maple trees, like Canadians.

Sincerely,
Knutor

You know, you gotta trust the wiki!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Middle-earth)

"and by their first hundred years of life outside the womb all Elves are fully grown"
"Elves have few children, as a rule (Fëanor and Nerdanel were an exception, conceiving seven sons), and there are relatively sizeable intervals between each child "

That's Middle Earth elves, not Dwarf Fortress ones.

[knutor]

History is written by the victors.  That is because the defeated are dead.  Not all bipedal beings behaved, alike, while they lived.  Of the ones we know, man who evolved enough to write about it, we learn, through his biased historical facts, that we can come to the Helgoland conclusion, without so much as a wink, but to come to an unknown conclusion, one that isn't preached into our heads from birth, until death, by the geopolitical mechanism, requires a more thoughtfulness, not usually found in nature. 

However, there are large volumes of information, that is unknown.  Vastly more than is known, that is for certain.  And to limit the unknown, is to limit the fun. There was a man in the movie, Matrix, for example, that was an anomaly.  The man of steel, Superman, explain him?  If Toady limits the game to the harsh restraints of earthly history, in the dark ages, he might as well call his game, Human Fortress. 

If monkeys killed off a substantial amount of humans in one of the 'ages', we'd have SirHoneyBadger's monkey beowulf to read, instead of what the good scientists say happened.  Its all relative to where the space dust of the universe fell to the ground.  Some areas were rich, and some were, well, for lack of a better term, bait animals.  It is for this reason that the world generator must be the foremost consideration factor, in race roles.

And if its the foremost, it must have preset prejudices, for the AI to work and adapt.  Otherwise, the if/then behavior, and oh shit/doh behavior, wouldn't be as intuitively sound as it would need to be, to hold the average gamers, average interest for more than a glancing moment.  And as it were, it will be.  To the victor goes the spoils.  If the elfs win, then something gets spoiled.  If the orcs win, then something gets spoiled. 

And if the humans win, DF becomes the same old boring spoiled egg sucker, reality  A *yawnfest* of facts and figures, we all know all too well.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[C27]

History is written by the victors.  That is because the defeated are dead.  Not all bipedal beings behaved, alike, while they lived.  Of the ones we know, man who evolved enough to write about it, we learn, through his biased historical facts, that we can come to the Helgoland conclusion, without so much as a wink, but to come to an unknown conclusion, one that isn't preached into our heads from birth, until death, by the geopolitical mechanism, requires a more thoughtfulness, not usually found in nature. 

However, there are large volumes of information, that is unknown.  Vastly more than is known, that is for certain.  And to limit the unknown, is to limit the fun. There was a man in the movie, Matrix, for example, that was an anomaly.  The man of steel, Superman, explain him?  If Toady limits the game to the harsh restraints of earthly history, in the dark ages, he might as well call his game, Human Fortress. 

If monkeys killed off a substantial amount of humans in one of the 'ages', we'd have SirHoneyBadger's monkey beowulf to read, instead of what the good scientists say happened.  Its all relative to where the space dust of the universe fell to the ground.  Some areas were rich, and some were, well, for lack of a better term, bait animals.  It is for this reason that the world generator must be the foremost consideration factor, in race roles.

And if its the foremost, it must have preset prejudices, for the AI to work and adapt.  Otherwise, the if/then behavior, and oh shit/doh behavior, wouldn't be as intuitively sound as it would need to be, to hold the average gamers, average interest for more than a glancing moment.  And as it were, it will be.  To the victor goes the spoils.  If the elfs win, then something gets spoiled.  If the orcs win, then something gets spoiled. 

And if the humans win, DF becomes the same old boring spoiled egg sucker, reality  A *yawnfest* of facts and figures, we all know all too well.

Sincerely,
Knutor

I've read this four times and I still can't quite make out what it is that you're trying to say, but it seems to be something like "Species in DF develop in reaction to what they've been randomly given, and sometimes one gets an advantage over the others and sometimes not." Is that correct?

[Loud Whispers]

He's saying that if Toady limits himself to situations where everything is historically accurate in some way or another, then it takes away the entire fantasy element to it. Because apparently human fortress would suck, because we know all too much about ourselves

[knutor]

Predators have 2+ weapons.  Every last one of them.  I would say, the most successful ones, have the fewest, and best designed, in cross comparison.  Wouldn't you?

Silent Flight + Night Vision. -Owl, its claws and beak are nice too.  But their size and sight is all they really need.
Endurance + Communication. -Us, some of us focus outward instead of inward. 
Tooth Regeneration + Smell. -Shark, airlessness, and blood frenzy also helps.

Fantasy gives our imagination room to wiggle.  Room to pair and repair natural weapons, on almost anything.  Dr. Moreau, "A pig may be educated."

I take offense that humans be delegated to farmers for the rest of DF civilizations to feed off of.  I prefer the Star Trek interpretation of humans in a world filled with aliens.  Sure we have pink skin and oink if we wanna.  But we also have great will to prevail, as endurance hunters, and the unsurpassed ability to communicate when things are at their very worst. 

We lack the info however to really put a stamp on what makes us so dominate.  Our history on Earth is but just a blink.  The hellpig, had hoofs and dominated for a million years, solely based on its bite and ramrod-rib breaking snoot.  It never had to go to college, to win food.  So I wonder, do we really know all we think we know.  Or are we just living a big lie.

Lets think about how humans should be presented in DF?

In DF, I would say humans would anchor interspecies diplomacy and compete in the many arenas of conflict, battlefields, technology, and reproduction in teams or to use a relatively unpopular term, CLANS.  We are a pack animal.  Much unlike elfs, who for living all the time they do, must develop incredible family feuds. 

Unlike an elf, a human neighbor would not steal and resell natural resources, but forcefully take what he sees, what he sees not being used.  To farm on, I guess, if what the human sought was land.  Or just to have, in order to have for future generation.  Motivations have to be odd, and heavily influenced by nature.

Trade as I see it, would need to evolve, where ever the space debris of highest quality seemed to appear first, or where the games random seeding lay it.  Toady shouldn't use trade tendencies and farm tendencies or even long lifespans as a definition of behavior, the surroundings should dictatator the events. 

I'm constantly horrified at these pointy eared hobgoblins showing up, professorizing to always like wood and nature.  Just once, I'd love if they showed up offering ash and coal, and wanting wood, like dark elves.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Loud Whispers]

Well lets see here, Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Goblins are all predators. Which means they all have to be smarter than their prey. Which is why I kinda disagree with you. Humans aren't these pigs to be preyed on, they're weird iron clad creatures that tower over your average Dorf
They're not mundane, they're not simply farmers and they're definitely not Kobolds. Humans are usually the creatures that end up taking over the most land!
It's something the game does well - putting humans in the perspective of a mythic race, so that the people you should  be most familiar with are very foreign. Although it would be bloody nice to have deeper interactions between the four races. Trade lines, family lines, industry groups forming, alliances... And of course, all out war.
In the Axes of Lions, 4th of Felsite Spring, the Human civilisation the bridges of trading employed the goblin civilisation the spikes of murder.
Also I'd imagine Elves would have plenty of time away from each other in their forest retreats, or making their rope reed clothing e.t.c. Must be hard tending to a garden that spans forests

Toady shouldn't use trade tendencies and farm tendencies or even long lifespans as a definition of behavior, the surroundings should dictatator the events. 

This is a good idea.

[knutor]

Remember who said, "Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence."¹   I'd say nature in DF is the exact same thing.  Wouldn't you?

Or who said this, "My trouble took the strangest form. I could not persuade myself that the men and women I met were not also another Beast People, animals half wrought into the outward image of human souls, and that they would presently begin to revert,—to show first this bestial mark and then that. But I have confided my case to a strangely able man,—a man who had known Moreau, and seemed half to credit my story; a mental specialist,—and he has helped me mightily, though I do not expect that the terror of that island will ever altogether leave me. At most times it lies far in the back of my mind, a mere distant cloud, a memory, and a faint distrust; but there are times when the little cloud spreads until it obscures the whole sky. Then I look about me at my fellow-men; and I go in fear. I see faces, keen and bright; others dull or dangerous; others, unsteady, insincere,—none that have the calm authority of a reasonable soul."²  When facing an ambassador to a civilization for the first time, there should be some raw fear. The mount he arrives on, should be some indicator as to just what to expect. 

Gryphon - Dangerous
Donkey - Primitive
Slaves - Tyrant
Magic Hauling Carpet - Magical Wizards
Air Balloon - Technical Wizards
No Mount - Desperate

Like a salesman trained to read fashion, in order to close the deal.  I'd enjoy if Toady gave us some intuitive thinking, and strategy during that once/yr ambassador visit, instead of just a hectic load up of junk to the Depot, and a buggy interuptive trade interface.  But aslong as I don't have to pay for this, in order to play it, I'm happy with whatever he does.

Sincerely,
Knutor

1. Star Trek
2. Island of Dr. Moreau

[knutor]

Humans aren't these pigs to be preyed on, they're weird iron clad creatures that tower over your average Dorf

I agree. But I wouldn't use weird.  There are many similarities.  I imagine Dorf breed for shortness and fullhairedness.  Some scientists say the wolf devolved into a pink poodle in just one generation, of living with us and eating slum pile gourmets.

Could humans have devolved from dorfs in just one generation, by simply eating dorf refuse?  Makes me scratch my head.  And what is a generation, to an elf?  Infinity? 

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Loud Whispers]

That would seem pretty a drastic change to occur in one generation, and yes, species have been known to mutate in order to take advantage of a new food source (Lactose tolerance in humans for example is only something that started appearing common within the last century), but Humans and Dwarves are pretty separate species, regardless of origins. Though since Elves and Goblins can, a slightly worrying thought I might add, perhaps Humans and Dwarves are not too different then we think, albeit distrustful of each other.