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Author Topic: Considering Races' Roles  (Read 17010 times)

King DZA

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2011, 12:21:08 pm »

I enjoy humans in my fantasy games. It's the race I normally pick when given the choice. It could simply be because of my undying love and amazement for humanity, but I see humans as being one of the most important races in fantasy games/stories. They have the potential to be caring and compassionate protectors, or sinister, merciless overlords, and anything in between. Even in the same fantasy world.
Most other races usually seem to stick to one set of morals, and rarely ever stray from that. And when they do, it just splits them off as some subtype of the race(dark elves, hill dwarves, ect.). But with humans, just about anything is possible.

When humans act like assholes, they don't become dark humans(not normally, at least), they're just assholes. They don't have to be vastly superior or divine in order to be kind toward other races, either. It would seem to me that most fantasy worlds would quickly become very static without the addition of humans to mix it up while also balancing things out.
Though, to be fair, the fantasy world of DF hasn't really gotten to the point where a full spectrum of morality can be implemented into the game. So right now, all races are pretty bland in that aspect. Fortunately, this is certain to change in the future.

Neonivek

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2011, 04:12:45 pm »

I have to admit you made me laugh King DZA

I have to admit you are right. Humans tend not to turn into "dark humans" almost at all.

The only times I've seen humans turn into a different type of human is from actual outright mutation.

It is like humans are the only race with written permission to be complex and dynamic.
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knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2011, 09:13:56 pm »

It is like humans are the only race with written permission to be complex and dynamic.

A pink poodle was once a dire wolf.  Evolution, has got to be given its chance to play its hand out.  An elf culture in a savage biome, should flex all its possible survival skills in order to exist.  A human the same, even if it treads into the skills the dwarfs hold dearest.  Just as a dwarf, not the player, but a dwarf civie, in the most wooded of regions, has got to learn to hug a broadleaf tree.  That is evolution. 

What I don't like is when science ruins my fun.  And although I wish evolution to exist in DF, I don't want it to burst the prefabricated ideas I hold about who does what, and who doesn't.  Its hard for me to really understand humans and elfs outside their trade caravan, so I imagine, I'm a little prejudiced by my views of the economy, but without those, I can honestly say, I'm content with the limited and narrow definition, of the races.  Just as long as ea entity, blip has unique attributes, that make up its pathology.

What about the race of night creatures and demons?  Nobody has mentioned them, do you all disable them in your worlds?  I'd love to know how they come by their powerful items and skills.  Often I've wondered if there is some hidden danger room leveling up these hellions. 

Sincerely,
Knutor
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2011, 07:17:47 am »

I can't think of too many basic stories that couldn't be told from another species' point of view, provided the species in question is fairly close to humans, mentally, and fleshed out enough.

You could tell the same basic story of Beowulf with monkeys as the protagonists, set in a Banyan tree for example, with the role of Grendel and his mother played by lions (the female mother being the deadlier hunter of the two), and the role of Beowulf played by a large baboon from a distant Banyan (the grassy veldt taking the place of the ocean). Later, a black mamba could fill the role of the dragon (did a monkey steal some of her eggs?). And, instead of the framework of Norse myth, you could just as easily use "flavor" elements from Yoruba myth. 

There are innumerable stories from throughout human history, myth, fables, fantasy, etc. where the nature of the protagonist was, either subtly or overtly, altered--very often replacing humans with sentient animals, gods/demigods, vice-versa and etc. etc. etc. cross-culturally, so it's not at all an uncommon phenomenon. 


Neonivek: I'm fairly strongly in favor of allowing science and fantasy to coexist with as much harmony between them as possible. My idea of a "fantasy" universe--emphasis on fantasy, as in an imagined desire for an ideal reality to live in, or atleast to dream about--is one that makes sense, that follows a reasonably logical set of rules, laws, and internal consistency. The elements of modern life that I most dislike tend to have their roots in social ills, human fallibility, and limitation of resources. I love nature and history, elegance and aesthetics, but I'm no luddite, and no purist when it comes to anachronism, either. 



« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:29:48 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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King Mir

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2011, 08:09:32 am »

You could tell the same basic story of Beowulf with monkeys as the protagonists, set in a Banyan tree for example, with the role of Grendel and his mother played by lions (the female mother being the deadlier hunter of the two), and the role of Beowulf played by a large baboon from a distant Banyan (the grassy veldt taking the place of the ocean). Later, a black mamba could fill the role of the dragon (did a monkey steal some of her eggs?). And, instead of the framework of Norse myth, you could just as easily use "flavor" elements from Yoruba myth.
You could tell the same basic story like that to monkeys, but it wouldn't be as epic to humans. The monkeys would probably like it better though. Giving non human traits to hero's changes their relatability. Some hero's are demigods, others are just really talented people. Hero's of a different race would be somewhere in between. But that makes them less relatable than talented humans.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2011, 09:57:53 am »

You could tell the same basic story like that to monkeys, but it wouldn't be as epic to humans. The monkeys would probably like it better though. Giving non human traits to hero's changes their relatability. Some hero's are demigods, others are just really talented people. Hero's of a different race would be somewhere in between. But that makes them less relatable than talented humans.

I disagree, and there are plenty of myths from plenty of cultures to back me up. Billions of people have been relating to the Monkey King from the epic 'Journey to the West', for centuries. How many people relate strongly to even "light" comedic characters like Bugs Bunny or Snoopy or Scooby Doo, even in modern times, but have difficulty relating to people from other cultures?

Neonivek: As far as night creatures go (atleast some of them): I've been considering lately the idea that perhaps most truly undead beings (as a term or label) are the agents of Entropy itself, or maybe some awful intelligence and will of Nothingness (an eternal and absolute Nothingness that wants only to be "born"), reaching out from beyond the death of Time itself, and well past the final effects of Entropy.

This Power (...anti-power?) might work it's way into the bodies and souls of the recently deceased, and gradually corrupt and replace what was there with it's essence, turning what was once alive into unnatural ghoulish beings driven by a pure bottomless hatred for everything they encounter.   

Although their immediate and primary goal would be to snuff out all life, everywhere, whatever Power it is that fuels the Undead, the Power that brought them back and gave them their twisted, mocking, semblance of life, would exist in opposition to anything alive, energetic, or even dynamic.

It wouldn't completely destroy or entirely replace what that being once was, but would instead possess and irrevocably dominate that essence, filling the dead things with a serene, unbreakable wish and need for--to actively work towards--the utter destruction of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything', and to eliminate the means and foundations for things like Life and Energy to even exist; whether that "living thing" is a dwarf, a germ, a dragon, blood cells, a fire elemental, a blade of grass, a serial killer, a computer, an eldritch abomination from beyond the stars, a star itself, the Devil, a catchy tune, whatever.

Undead beings would retain complete, if abstract, knowledge of who they once were. They would be able to access their knowledge, memories, and native intellect to achieve their overriding destructive purpose, and also to avoid detection, but they would be soulless things from which morality (including "blue&orange" varieties), ethics, even basic instinctual purpose and balance within Nature, have been removed and entirely excised, and then replaced with pure, polarized loathing, making them utter enemies of everyone, opposed to and existing outside of, any concept of a "D&D Alignment" as in good, evil, law, chaos, balance, or even madness. 

That would add an interesting element to political interactions, as even the most bitter enemies, the worst most unhinged psychopaths and lunatics, the most diabolical of fiends, and even beings with utterly alien minds, would always have one insidious and powerful, potentially very intelligent, subtle, and endlessly patient, enemy of everyone and everything, working tirelessly, sleeplessly; not to impose rule, work vengeances, or to win anything, but to simply and finally incinerate, obliterate, erase every Universe, every speck of Reality.

Not every death would create such a horror. Some beings, upon dying, would be able to fight the effect, resist the corruption for a time, or even ignore and fully overcome it. Allowing the dead to still have an important place in the lives of those around them--building headstones and monuments to them, the survival and growth of their family, respecting their works and desires, and even just good, strong memories of them--would all help keep the Nothing Power from overtaking them. Those who devoted themselves to the furthering and improving of Life, in it's various aspects, might join with other such souls, to form Spirits of the Forest/Spirits of Life, and the like, or occasionally return as undying protectors and other benevolent beings.

Some would go on to other states of being, and/or planes of existence, and maybe some might even achieve divinity and immortality, moving beyond the cycles of life and death to reach godhood, but the Nothing Power would be formidable, and some of the spirits who rose to higher levels of being beyond death would find themselves eventually crashing back down again, and it would be these greater souls who almost, but not quite, escaped the reach of the Nothing's corruption, that would eventually become some of the most powerful and dangerous forms of undead.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:59:58 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2011, 03:11:50 pm »

I enjoy humans in my fantasy games. It's the race I normally pick when given the choice. It could simply be because of my undying love and amazement for humanity, but I see humans as being one of the most important races in fantasy games/stories. They have the potential to be caring and compassionate protectors, or sinister, merciless overlords, and anything in between. Even in the same fantasy world.
Most other races usually seem to stick to one set of morals, and rarely ever stray from that. And when they do, it just splits them off as some subtype of the race(dark elves, hill dwarves, ect.). But with humans, just about anything is possible.

When humans act like assholes, they don't become dark humans(not normally, at least), they're just assholes. They don't have to be vastly superior or divine in order to be kind toward other races, either. It would seem to me that most fantasy worlds would quickly become very static without the addition of humans to mix it up while also balancing things out.
Though, to be fair, the fantasy world of DF hasn't really gotten to the point where a full spectrum of morality can be implemented into the game. So right now, all races are pretty bland in that aspect. Fortunately, this is certain to change in the future.

I modded humans to be the playable race, changed their morals a bit to match modern standards, and turned them into samurai.

I learned to fear Dwarf sieges.
They will happily venture into the dark depths in search of prey.

BUT ENOUGH WITH THIS! Is a full spectrum of morality really important right now?
Though I do admit, having a demon controlled civ slowly warp the morals of all of its subjects...

And what's this about Beowulf monkeys. I think you guys just broke anthropomorphism.

King DZA

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2011, 03:36:16 pm »

I can't think of too many basic stories that couldn't be told from another species' point of view, provided the species in question is fairly close to humans, mentally, and fleshed out enough.
But the same could easily be said about stories of any other race as well, meaning that the subject of race may actually become completely trivial.

However, let's be totally honest here, monkey Beowulf could hardly be taken as anything other than a comedy, and wouldn't have nearly the same vibe as the original human version. If we turned Bugs Bunny or Scooby Doo into humans, they might still play the same roll in their stories, but it would't be the same thing.
You could go around changing characters from all sorts of stories into different species, but it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to keep the same feeling that the original had intact.

Is a full spectrum of morality really important right now?

I must admit, I'm surprised to hear that from you.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2011, 03:41:15 pm »

Is a full spectrum of morality really important right now?

I must admit, I'm surprised to hear that from you.

Clue's in right now. Vampies (tasty, tasty tasty vampies), Werewolves and a revamped justice system YEAUUUHRGH!!

In the future, this will have to go on Toady's purple list, or there will be many consequences.
(The internets will asplodes).

Also, I'd say a monkey Beowulf would just change spectrum immediately, I mean a drunken berserker who could not tell his enemy from friend being slain by a naked warrior compared to a monkey slaying an angry animal, I wouldn't take it as a comedy, but rather a fairy tale, as opposed to a legend.
Unless this was the species' point of view, that animals were legendary, such as an Elf viewing it...
I can immediately see why making flexible morals would become difficult to implement.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2011, 08:53:06 pm »

Beowulf. As comedy???

Unless you're very unfamiliar with the story itself, and mythological framework, in general, I can't believe you'd be serious about that.

If not, then there's plenty of dead serious, at times even horrific, modern writing that involves animal protagonists: Watership Down and the Redwall series come to mind, as perhaps the most recogniseable...

I also can't imagine anything other than abject terror at the thought of being a monkey, confronted by a lion (particularly one who's hunting and killing for sport/fun, as predatory cats have long been known to do).

Animals/other species are not intrinsically comedic in and of themselves. Even a company like Disney clearly recognises that there's a lot more to the story.
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King DZA

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2011, 09:20:28 pm »

I'm well aware of that. But if you were to change those animal characters into humans, it would seem incredibly out of place, even if it followed the same theme/storyline. Much like turning Beowulf into a monkey.

King Mir

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2011, 10:58:46 pm »

King DZA and I are, I think, on the same page about Beowulf monkeys. In addition to what he said I'd like to draw attention to the fact that it is the character Wiglaff, who is brave enough to fight the dragon with Beowulf when he sees Beowulf is outmatched, not Beowulf, that would be most diminished by being a dwarf or monkey. His defining feature is bravery, not might, and giving him super human traits would diminish that bravery.

More generally, the unlikely meek hero narrative is very common, and in stories where the might and meek must be of the same race, only humans are sufficient for full effect.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2011, 02:49:35 am »

King DZA and I are, I think, on the same page about Beowulf monkeys. In addition to what he said I'd like to draw attention to the fact that it is the character Wiglaff, who is brave enough to fight the dragon with Beowulf when he sees Beowulf is outmatched, not Beowulf, that would be most diminished by being a dwarf or monkey. His defining feature is bravery, not might, and giving him super human traits would diminish that bravery.

More generally, the unlikely meek hero narrative is very common, and in stories where the might and meek must be of the same race, only humans are sufficient for full effect.

Well, in Dwarf Fortress, the only difference between humans and monkeys are a handful of pixels, and what we choose to do with them.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2011, 02:31:58 pm »

Beowulf. As comedy???

Unless you're very unfamiliar with the story itself, and mythological framework, in general, I can't believe you'd be serious about that.

If not, then there's plenty of dead serious, at times even horrific, modern writing that involves animal protagonists: Watership Down and the Redwall series come to mind, as perhaps the most recogniseable...

I also can't imagine anything other than abject terror at the thought of being a monkey, confronted by a lion (particularly one who's hunting and killing for sport/fun, as predatory cats have long been known to do).

Animals/other species are not intrinsically comedic in and of themselves. Even a company like Disney clearly recognises that there's a lot more to the story.

Dude Poe's law.
Keep in mind it was a reply to a post. Prolly should've quoted it in hindsight :P

knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2011, 04:54:12 pm »

One way to setup the role, would be to extrapolate the leaders greatest and lowest attributes, into a wider array of society values.  Like if the leader is Unfriendly and Active.  That leaders civilization could be all somewhat weighted as isolationists with a faster than normal build rates. 

The difficult thing is how the export of terror, is handled amongst the races.  Have you ever seen your mountain home reach such an upset and angry state that it exported terror to you?  I haven't.  Is it possible?  I would think, or wish, that it would be possible.  However, inferior it might make our empire, it does go directly to the overlord-like control aspects of the player to have the flexibility to become a hated despot, every once in awhile.

How would all this affect the artwork.  So many times I see statues made of my enemies, named as such, only to read them and see it paints them in an inferior role.  Well what is going to happen if after I set one of those up near the depot, and I decide to swing the opinion of them in a favorable way?  Then one of the guards, or traders from their race sees my statue?  Will they defile it, commence warfare, or just acquire an unfavorable thought. 

Being not of my yoke, how would I even be aware of that thought.  There are so many tangibles if race roles were not preset, that could crop up, that would down the road, create uncomfortable events.  I'm all for some presets in the race roles, in order to avoid DF tumbling into illogical mayhem and disastrous loops in opinionated thoughts.

Sincerely,
Knutor
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