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Author Topic: Considering Races' Roles  (Read 17379 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2011, 05:50:55 pm »

It rarely happens if ever.

They just don't have enough geopolitical interest in eachother.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2011, 05:52:29 pm »

It rarely happens if ever.

They just don't have enough geopolitical interest in eachother.

Have you ever used the legends map? It's a horrific mess of squares tearing each other to pieces.

Neonivek

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2011, 05:59:36 pm »

It rarely happens if ever.

They just don't have enough geopolitical interest in eachother.

Have you ever used the legends map? It's a horrific mess of squares tearing each other to pieces.

Mostly Humans and Elves and if the Dwarves get in a war it is either with Humans or Goblins.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2011, 06:02:43 pm »

You should see my maps then ^-^

Neonivek

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2011, 06:07:26 pm »

You should see my maps then ^-^

Do you use Tiny or Full world maps?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2011, 06:10:29 pm »

I use the largest ones I can get my hand on, which might explain it.
[Each civ gets to a considerable empire size before they come into conflict with other civs]

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2011, 01:01:55 pm »

Humans have several advantages over the other races already in Dwarf Fortress. Hense why they often are the dominant race. Their ability to survive in a variety of environments as well as their relatively stable political structure (as opposed to goblins for example) is a rather large boon.

Dwarves and Elves can almost never be the dominant race due to their tendency to bunker down in a few small sections of the world.

Goblins also lack the strong political structure to make long lasting strides.

It is only in small worlds where distances and territory are extremely limited that Humans can even think about not being the dominant overlords of all they survay and even then it is because they lose to the Elves' overwhelming numbers (And they get together with Dwarves too well to war with them too often).

The Human's other advantage is their wide range of advantages over their focused cousins (the tech focused Dwarves, and the whatever the elves do). They got a great political structure, their trade is strong, their technology is good, they get along with most other races, their magic is good, and they by far have the largest resource race, as well as a powerful culture.

Their advantage is that no matter what they are up against they have something else to use. They have few weaknesses and many strengths.

Of COURSE this excludes that I HOPE humans later start to have differening cultures.
So, humans are good at everything but excel at nothing? Sounds roughly what I suggested, with the caveat that the other races suck at diplomacy for varying reasons. Elves are disliking of other races' cutting-down-of-trees and other "blasphemies," goblins think differently and kidnap other races' kids (not to mention that they are openly lead by demons), kobolds can't talk, and dwarves...well, are dwarves.
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Neonivek

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2011, 01:36:59 pm »

They Excel at many things since they lack decent competition in a few vital areas.

They just don't beat out the other races in their area of ultrafocused expertise.

In every other area the humans are kings (which sort of makes them the best)

It means that they arn't "Average" in that they are a hill. They are a mountainous Plateu.
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antymattar

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2011, 10:32:16 am »

Look, I dont understand the bitching you guys give about humans being AVERAGE and doing so called AVERAGE stuff. The only reason you think this way is because you ARE humans. I mean, dwarves are probably like "Meh, dwarves are average" because they are dwarves. When you look at humans from the viewpoint of other races, they seem different. The elves probably think humans are quite different because they build cities in the plains and they have large families and stuff. And the dwarves think simmilarly. Let humans be humans. If anything, I would like their "Human nature" to be nerfed a bit so that they stop crapping  up the map. I dont really understand the "Politics" stuff. Define politics. If by that you mean "Do we have a king or a president" then... How is that special? But if you think of something else... Please define that.

Neonivek

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2011, 11:40:12 am »

Humans tend to be average in all fiction simply through perception. We guage everything using Humans as the baseline.

Some games even go as far as to say that the game does its math assuming human = 0 or human = 1 and that yeah, they could have used any other race for comparison. (In fact there is a Dungeons and dragons varient that uses "Miniscule" as the baseline size. Humans at that point are quite large and dangerous as all the PCs are really small)

"Define politics. If by that you mean "Do we have a king or a president" then... How is that special?"

Our ability to organise ourselves gives as an administrative advantage over the other races as well as out ability to work together while still retaining some autonomy.

Goblins largest weakness for example is a lack of strong political structure. They have a lot of infighting.

Quote
I would like their "Human nature" to be nerfed a bit so that they stop crapping  up the map

This has to do with two facts

1) Humans can populate Wooded, Sand, and Plains.
2) Humans can take down woods and turn them to plains.

My solution is for, in the future, that the worlds be significantly larger so that there can be large stretches of uncivilised areas with possibly only one race.
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Funk

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 01:57:29 pm »

Humans have a great range of land types thay can populate.
The dwarfs never spred far from there start.

There short lives this keeps there leader slots open.
The bad news is that it is rare for them to have great fighters like dwarfs or elfs as thay die to often.

goblins
The goblins are Immortal so leader slots are full for most of the time.
as there Immortal there great fighters will live from war to war geting stronger after each fight.
demons and other monster often lead them,this gives then a lot of military power tied up in one creature.

only the fact that thay have to build in evil land and there back stabing keep then down.

notes on world gen fighting
i did do some tests back in .1Xsomething on dwaf vs elf wars.
i found that the kill rates where for wood useing elf vs steel useing dwarfs mosty right,
20 dwarf of low skill can kill 200 elf of the same skill level with only a few minor would to show for it.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:17:26 pm by Funk »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 03:54:47 pm »

humans have a great range of land types thay can populate, dwarfs never spred far from there start.

humans are a young race with short lives, so thay extend there land fast,so thay have more fighters when wars start.

there short lives this keeps there leader slots open.
the bad news is that it is rare for them to have great fighters like dwarfs or elfs as thay die to often.

goblins
are Immortal so leader slots are full for most of the time.
as there Immortal there great fighters will live from war to war geting stronger after each fight.
demons and other monster often lead them,this gives then a lot of military power tied up in one creature.

only the fact that thay have to build in evil land and there back stabing keep then down.

notes on world gen fighting
i did do some tests back in .1Xsomething on dwaf vs elf wars.
i found that the kill rates where for wood useing elf vs steel useing dwarfs mosty right,
20 dwarf of low skill can kill 200 elf of the same skill level with only a few minor would to show for it.

I agree to a point... But sorry to be nitpicky, about your grammar.....

antymattar

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 04:14:55 pm »

So if you guys define pollitics as organizing yourself.... The why do humans just have warlords hile dwarves have kings, generals etc, elves have queens and shamans and goblins have rulers and shamans? Like, is that REALLY organizing. You are discussing stuff about the game and thinking its already in while,  in fact, its not even in the game yet. Humans just build tons of towns and are as unorganized as hell. I would rather put them apart bythe fact that they wage so many wars. They actually fight ammongst each other more than goblins.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 04:53:43 pm »

Humans literally win by breeding everywhere. Hell, I bet there's a legendary Hasslehuman somewhere.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2011, 06:19:31 pm »


Normal races in abnormal worlds give people a "base point" to view the world from. Essentially.

Yes...and that can be a very useful tool when writing fantasy literature, for public consumption, but by now, don't the majority of us view elves and dwarfs and goblins as pretty much "normal races" when talking about a work of fantasy?

We know what a dwarf is, and does, and stands for, and many of us relate to them, and I imagine I'm not the only one who enjoys this game more because of that feeling of connection.

The others as well, if perhaps slightly less so, but by eliminating "average" humans, that gives more of an opportunity to expand on reasons why someone might connect to the world-view of a kobold, a goblin, or even *rolls eyes* an...elf...(yeah, so atleast it's a good indicator of who not to invite to parties).

Nobody's special anymore *just* by being a "demi-human".

Do we really need a big bland average "does everything ok but nothing really great" empire in the game? Does that really add something vital to the experience, when you're playing an ASCII computer strategy game? How much more do you sympathise with those human-pixels than with your dwarf-pixels?

By eliminating the humans, I instead am able to specifically concentrate on making animalmen more interesting (by giving them a handful of diverse civilizations, knightly orders, political alliances and enemies, roughly human-level technology, and incorporating variety even among various separate species--to the point where a civilization can be formed out of everything from normal animals, to highly intelligent beings of megabeast power.), and atleast in many of the most valuable ways, using them to fill the role of an otherwise blah human presence.

This allows me to keep the interesting facets of a large, neutral political power, and give it a vibe that's more "Europe" than "America", while at the same time, injecting life and creativity into quite a few tired old cliches. And I daresay that atleast a lot of us do sympathise, or have sympathised with, and attached ourselves to, one or various animal species, on atleast some emotional level, atleast as a pet.

If you never have, you really might want to consult a good psychiatrist...

It also allows me more "room" to work on more important dwarf/kobold/goblin/elf...dragon/sasquatch/yeti/dark gnome/minotaur/gneiss man roles in the world-at-large.

In many fantasy works, dwarfs are isolationists, and often surrounded by other species, while goblins are one-dimensional "enemies", with little role in the world, other than as aggressors/destroyers. Elves, knowing their time is over and simply not caring, are leaving, fading away, "too good for this world", or just too apathetic, to have a future that's more than a pretty fairytale. Kobolds, while still fairly undefined as a steriotype, generally just remain more or less undefined and directionless. And the rest are just there for atmosphere.

No humans forced all of that to shift.

There's no "America" for the dwarfs to hide away from, to be surrounded by. There's no "America" for the goblins to menace as terrorists, or commies, or mongols, or whatever the Western World is afraid of this week. There's noone to replace the elves, or to be deeded the world from, or even to miss them. And there's a whole lot more for kobolds to accomplish, to become. Every intelligent species must now be examined. These species suddenly have a reason to live, and ambitions, and a future that's their own, not ours.

In this single removal, the possibility of another inferior Tolkien rehash is eliminated (who's going to inherit the fourth age now? the badgermen? ...maybe...). Fantasy suddenly has options

Finally, this isn't a bad move for the humans, either. Removing them from fantasy cleans the slate of all manner of admittedly important, but by now endlessly tedious, moral and environmental lessons, as well as cliched allusions to real-world history/culture, and the entire sense of "America vs Evil". 
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