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[GreatWyrmGold]

There are five main races in Dwarf Fortress: Dwarves (duh), elves, humans, goblins, and kobolds. In addition, there are a large number of intelligent beasts that don't ever make anything or form actual nations, and a smaller number thereof that make a few wooden weapons and armor but still no actual tools/buildings. The idea here is to consider how they interact in the world.

Dwarves are the highest-tech race, with steel rather than just iron and bronze. They also tend to retreat deep within the earth, preferring solitude over contact with other races. In contrast, elves use exclusively wood and magic, living on the surface and riding their wilderness friends to trade with other races. Goblins care not what other races think of their actions, capturing children and killing "indoctrinated" adults to "save" them from their "cruel" lifestyles. (Or maybe they're just evil. Same results.) Kobolds are the least of the races, having only what knives they steal from other races, but with a charm and cunning that allows them access greater than that their low tech level and such might suggest. Finally, towering above the other common races are the humans, who are the poorest-defined so far, and so will be started with in my actual suggestion part.

Humans, being larger than the other races, could overpower them if it was down to brute force. It isn't, however. Dwarves have massive war machines and steel; elves have command of magic and animalfolk; goblins have the support of demonic patrons; and kobolds...well, nothing, so far. Plus, there's trolls and the like to consider. Therefore, I think that dwarves should use machines more than dwarfpower in war (due to their lower ratio of births:deaths compared to other races that are quicker-breeding and/or immortal, and to take advantage of their higher tech level); elves should unleash giant animals, treants, animalpeople, and plain old animals to form the core of their military; goblins' Dark Overlords should provide a helping hand in battle; and kobolds should combine a crude, shamanic form of magic with low cunning, speed, and stealth on those occasions when they need to fight.

This leads to: Humans, having neither mechanical knowledge nor great magical talent, would try to build trade and diplomatic relations with other races, using their size to its greatest advantage when needed. Dwarves wouldn't use much magic as a whole, but individual dwarves might use spells or whatever to help themselves out, and magical artifacts are of course prized--indeed, no one can craft like dwarves. Elves' magic is mainly bending the elements of nature to the elves' will (not that they put it that way), especially in using animals as soldiers. Goblins rely on their overlords' magic to save them, shrieking as they enter battle and crying out in pain if the overlords leave, but said overlords (probably demons or megabeasts) would use their immense strength and/or magical abilities to destroy armies for their faithful servants. Finally, kobolds take a little from everyone, living on the outskirts of society, occasionally finding someone to show pity and so feed the kobold's family. They have a rotten life, but it's a living. As long as there are distractible farmers and vaults of valuables, kobolds will live happy, fulfilling lives.

Thoughts on my ideas?

[antymattar]

So what you're suggesting is that humans be the "Americans" of the game....  I have nothing against someone who is born in America I'm just saying that you want them to enforce power on people through "relations"... ?...

All those links are rather cliche to be honest. Humans are, in fact, inventors. They can be diplomats but when has ANYTHING ever been truly achieved by diplomatic success? If nothing else I would suggest that the Elven birthrate be lowered(Compensated by them being immortal) so as to not give them an advantage once magic is involved. Right now, the strength of the humans is their walls and their sheer number. Humans build forts and crap up the world with their buildings. They have this sort of order-esque thing going there. Not their politics or monetary incentives. They cant even craft. All they do is make enough food to feed the whole of HFS.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Also, I terribly disliked that part about humans being fighters. Out of all the cliche stuff that was the worst. Come on! Do people seriously not understand that the true killers(In the real world) are the dudes who run the economy. The only reason people fight is because they were told to do so by some dumbf*** who just wanted economical goals. You were right when you said that Kobolds take a bit from each civ. They take their shittyness from humans.

[peskyninja]

Yeah I dislike this cliche stuff, nothing impedes dwarfs from living in underground slums and trading tons of clothes smelling dead goblin neither the kobolds from stealing books and learning ( cutebold nerds or the elves from stealing.
IMO this should be determined in the world gen through what that race done to other and what other races did to them.
So we can have cases of a mighty Human empire wich the territory cover the whole world but it was conquered by another race, the elfs for example, and these elfs took their technology, killed their kings, raped their houses and burned their wifes.
This would transform this particular human civ in some kind of slave or minor race/civilization. (Similar to dragon age's elfs)

Any thoughts?

[Capntastic]

The game is designed to have racial and even civilization culture be determined during world-gen.   Trying to pigeon-hole who does what just detracts from that.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I gleefully eliminated humans from my modded game, in part to make the other species have more to do, and also in part, because I always thought the presence of humans and "demi-humans" in a fantasy world led to too many unfortunate racial implications.

Plus, humans to me are the most boring parts of fantasy. They almost always take their cues from historical culture, and they're almost always white westerners with swords who run around killing, or atleast oppressing, everyone else that stands in their way. At best, they're someone for the elves to be snide to, since elves are too often portrayed as better-than-humans.
At worst, they're, well, humans.  And I'm a human, so who cares? Why should I bother about these dopey, superstitious, scientifically backwards, English people?

Oh, and in my mod, kobolds eventually metamorphose into dragons, provided they live long enough.

[antymattar]

The game is designed to have racial and even civilization culture be determined during world-gen.   Trying to pigeon-hole who does what just detracts from that.

Well we do want to define SOMETHING that they MIGHT do or be like but there is always room for progress. I, however, am more bothered with elves in the game - They are cannibal midgets... Like... WTF!?

[GreatWyrmGold]

So what you're suggesting is that humans be the "Americans" of the game....  I have nothing against someone who is born in America I'm just saying that you want them to enforce power on people through "relations"... ?...

If you put it that way, then...I have no idea what you mean. My idea is that they are stronger than the other races ohysically, so to avoid them essentially being DF orcs, they need to have a different temperament.

All those links are rather cliche to be honest. Humans are, in fact, inventors. They can be diplomats but when has ANYTHING ever been truly achieved by diplomatic success? If nothing else I would suggest that the Elven birthrate be lowered(Compensated by them being immortal) so as to not give them an advantage once magic is involved. Right now, the strength of the humans is their walls and their sheer number. Humans build forts and crap up the world with their buildings. They have this sort of order-esque thing going there. Not their politics or monetary incentives. They cant even craft. All they do is make enough food to feed the whole of HFS.

First: Cliche? So is dwarves digging underground homes and elves living in harmony with nature.
Second: "When has anything been achieved by diplomatic success?" The Louisiana Purchase comes to mind instantly. Pretty much any treaty that didn't just add a war accomplished something, and by a "diplomatic success."
Third: "The strength of humans is their number and walls." Elves currently beat humans on number by sheer immortality (and humans not being notably more fertile--although I agree that they SHOULD be), and dwarves' underground strongholds work better and require less work than walls. And, anyways, walls are nice, but they don't help much against dwarven war-machines, elven eagle cavalry, demonic power, etc.
Fourth: Thanks for your thoughts. I disagree with some of your ideas, but you should share them anyways.

Also, I terribly disliked that part about humans being fighters. Out of all the cliche stuff that was the worst. Come on! Do people seriously not understand that the true killers(In the real world) are the dudes who run the economy. The only reason people fight is because they were told to do so by some dumbf*** who just wanted economical goals. You were right when you said that Kobolds take a bit from each civ. They take their shittyness from humans.

*sigh* Only three races work metal: Humans, dwarves, and goblins. Humans are bigger than dwarves or goblins. Therefore, without factoring in magic/machinery, humans are significantly better at combat than other races, especially once the numbers advantage you mentioned earlier is implemented. Better warriors fight more. Simple.

The game is designed to have racial and even civilization culture be determined during world-gen.   Trying to pigeon-hole who does what just detracts from that.

Determined during world-gen, with the starting point being derived from information in the raws. What should that information say? That's what I'm trying to suggest.

I gleefully eliminated humans from my modded game, in part to make the other species have more to do, and also in part, because I always thought the presence of humans and "demi-humans" in a fantasy world led to too many unfortunate racial implications.

Plus, humans to me are the most boring parts of fantasy. They almost always take their cues from historical culture, and they're almost always white westerners with swords who run around killing, or atleast oppressing, everyone else that stands in their way. At best, they're someone for the elves to be snide to, since elves are too often portrayed as better-than-humans.
At worst, they're, well, humans.  And I'm a human, so who cares? Why should I bother about these dopey, superstitious, scientifically backwards, English people?

Normal races in abnormal worlds give people a "base point" to view the world from. Essentially.

Oh, and in my mod, kobolds eventually metamorphose into dragons, provided they live long enough.

That...is a rather good idea.

Well we do want to define SOMETHING that they MIGHT do or be like but there is always room for progress. I, however, am more bothered with elves in the game - They are cannibal midgets... Like... WTF!?

Our elves are worse than other worlds'. DF is to most fantasy worlds what Warhammer 40k is to most science fiction worlds: Everything is there, but twisted to a dark, gloomy form. Oddly enough, life expectancies are similar, too.

[Neonivek]

Humans have several advantages over the other races already in Dwarf Fortress. Hense why they often are the dominant race. Their ability to survive in a variety of environments as well as their relatively stable political structure (as opposed to goblins for example) is a rather large boon.

Dwarves and Elves can almost never be the dominant race due to their tendency to bunker down in a few small sections of the world.

Goblins also lack the strong political structure to make long lasting strides.

It is only in small worlds where distances and territory are extremely limited that Humans can even think about not being the dominant overlords of all they survay and even then it is because they lose to the Elves' overwhelming numbers (And they get together with Dwarves too well to war with them too often).

The Human's other advantage is their wide range of advantages over their focused cousins (the tech focused Dwarves, and the whatever the elves do). They got a great political structure, their trade is strong, their technology is good, they get along with most other races, their magic is good, and they by far have the largest resource race, as well as a powerful culture.

Their advantage is that no matter what they are up against they have something else to use. They have few weaknesses and many strengths.

Of COURSE this excludes that I HOPE humans later start to have differening cultures.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm happy with things the way they are, humans win with industrialism and alliances with dwarves, elves don't have "magic", they simply are one with nature, goblins are fine being pricks, Dwarves... Bay12. Although I'd like to have kobolds that don't instantly die.

[Neonivek]

I'm happy with things the way they are, humans win with industrialism and alliances with dwarves, elves don't have "magic", they simply are one with nature, goblins are fine being pricks, Dwarves... Bay12. Although I'd like to have kobolds that don't instantly die.

They don't have alliances. There are no alliances in this game as far as I am aware. At least not in the sense that they are allies only "no more hurting us" agreements.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm happy with things the way they are, humans win with industrialism and alliances with dwarves, elves don't have "magic", they simply are one with nature, goblins are fine being pricks, Dwarves... Bay12. Although I'd like to have kobolds that don't instantly die.

They don't have alliances. There are no alliances in this game as far as I am aware. At least not in the sense that they are allies only "no more hurting us" agreements.

Alliances more in the way of;

Lets kill all of the elves! We want moar wood.

Agreed, but when they're dead I'm flooding your castles full of magma.

[Neonivek]

I'm happy with things the way they are, humans win with industrialism and alliances with dwarves, elves don't have "magic", they simply are one with nature, goblins are fine being pricks, Dwarves... Bay12. Although I'd like to have kobolds that don't instantly die.

They don't have alliances. There are no alliances in this game as far as I am aware. At least not in the sense that they are allies only "no more hurting us" agreements.

Alliances more in the way of;

Lets kill all of the elves! We want moar wood.

Agreed, but when they're dead I'm flooding your castles full of magma.

It is more like

Humans: "let us kill the elves"
Dwarves: "No"
Humans: "Ok"
Dwarves: "Hey stop hurting the elves. WAR!"
Humans: "Dang it!"

[Loud Whispers]

...Dwarves, defending elves?

QUICK! EDIT YOUR POST BEFORE ANYONE SEES!

[Neonivek]

...Dwarves, defending elves?

QUICK! EDIT YOUR POST BEFORE ANYONE SEES!

Dwarves and Elves get along fine in any mode other then Fortress mode.

[Loud Whispers]

...Dwarves, defending elves?

QUICK! EDIT YOUR POST BEFORE ANYONE SEES!

Dwarves and Elves get along fine in any mode other then Fortress mode.

Except when they're actively killing each other.