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Author Topic: Food & Drink Science  (Read 2403 times)

khearn

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Food & Drink Science
« on: November 22, 2011, 02:10:38 pm »

The question of how much booze dwarves need to drink has come up a couple of times recently, and has been answered by someone saying they think that someone else said that dwarves need 16 drinks per year. Since nobody seemed certain, i decided some science was needed.

I started out 7 dwarves with:
4 Picks
2 Battle Axes
28 Dwarven Beer
28 Dwarven Wine
28 Dwrven Ale
28 Dwarven Rum
112 Plump Helmets

The total number of booze was chosen as 112, the predicted consumption for 7 dwarves in 1 year.

They immediately chopped down a couple dozen trees, dug a modest fort, moved everything but the animals inside, and walled up the entrance. The animals were left pastured outside. They then proceeded to carve out a nice home with a 3x3 room for each dwarf and a 11x11 dining hall, then smoothed and engraved the rooms and hall. The digging, stone dumping, smoothing, and engraving kept everyone pretty much 100% busy for exactly 6 months (purely by coincidence, I didn't plan the timing). After that I gave them nothing to do and they just sat around for 6 month. They had no access to water and did not do any farming.

At the beginning of every month (approximately), I recorded how many booze and plump helmets were remaining. Sometimes I was a few days late, but I always recorded the exact date.  Starting in Felsite (the 3rd month) I also recorded how many plump helmet spawn were in stock, just to see how many I was getting from each plump helmet.

When migrants showed up, I set up a 1 tile meeting "hall" outside and let them sit out there. I expected them to either starve or get killed, but most of them survived by hunting and eating vermin. There were eventually 11 or them, and I organized them in 2 squads so they would defend themselves. One migrant arrived with a pick, which added immensely t their survivability. They managed to kill a couple of ogresses and a few harpies, but a werewolf did manage to get a few of them isolated and killed them. But they weren't important to the science, since they were completely isolated from the original 7.

Inside the fort, the booze slowly dwindled, and the food did even more slowly. The final drink was take on the 8th of Obsidian (the 11th month), nearly a month earlier than expected. As of that date, the dwarves had drunk at a rate of 16.72 drinks per year per dwarf, or one drink per 20.09 days for each dwarf. I strongly suspect the actual value is one drink per 20 days on average. But the rate did fluctuate over time, so there is probably a random factor tossed in.

On the 8th of Obsidian, the food was down to 53 plump helmets. That's a rate of 8.99 per year per dwarf, or 37.37 days per plump helmet for each dwarf. But see below for a possible problem with these numbers.

The number of seeds per plump helmet varied a lot, and sometimes the number of seeds fell from one month to the next. There were a few vermin (rats and demon rats) around, and I'm sure they were eating the seeds. I was able to see a few times when a rat appeared in the same tile as a seed, and when the rat disappeared the seed was gone. It's also possible that they ate some plump helmets (but I didn't see any), so the actual rates per dwarf may be somewhat lower than my results would indicate. That might just raise the plump helmet rate to a nice round 1 every 40 days, but that's pure speculation. I doubt the vermin consumed any booze. If I were to do this again (and I'm tempted), I would bring a couple of male cats to keep the vermin under control.

My data is recorded in a spreadsheet here.

As i said, I'm very tempted to repeat this with some cats to control the vermin. Any suggestions on other changes I should make to my test procedure?


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PhantomXD

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 02:22:03 pm »

That's a rate of 8.99 per year per dwarf, or 37.37 days per plump helmet for each dwarf.

Pretty dam accurate !!!SCIENCE!!!. I think it would be pretty hard to make a fairer test good job. :D

Maby you could skip the cats and mod out vermin and maby increase the time before food rots in case the plumps die before they get to the stockpile ?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 02:24:56 pm by PhantomXD »
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Blue_Dwarf

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2011, 02:56:33 pm »

Very interesting test :)

I think that your results are suggesting that idle dwarves eat and drink more often. Maybe in your next run you can test both fully idle and laboring dwarves?
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khearn

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 03:43:22 pm »

Very interesting test :)

I think that your results are suggesting that idle dwarves eat and drink more often. Maybe in your next run you can test both fully idle and laboring dwarves?

Actually, I didn't notice much difference in the rate of consumption during the busy 6 months and the idle 6 months, but I didn't look at that aspect very closely. Just skimming the numbers doesn't show anything obvious to me, though.

I just added a chart to the spreadsheet that shows the drinks/day and eats/day for the period between each data point. Except for the spike in drinking at the end, it doesn't seem like there is a difference between the first 6 months and the last.
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khearn

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 05:09:56 pm »

I let the original test continue after they ran out of drinks, and the first dwarf died of dehydration on (or shortly before) 2nd Slate. I wish the gamelog had time/date stamps. That's just under 2 months since they ran out of drinks. I'm guessing that the one that just died was the first to have his last drink, and it may be that it takes exactly 2 months for a dwarf to go from his last drink until he dies. I'll work on a way to confirm that in the next test.

I'm thinking of trying to split the dwarves up so each one is isolated with its own supply of booze/food. The problem is figuring out how to get them all split up and the supplies properly divided before they do any eating or drinking. Or else I'd have to watch them like a hawk to record who ate/drank how much before they were separated, and that sounds like a lot of hassle and pretty error prone.

Edit: The second death didn't occur until 9th Slate, 2 months and a day since the last drink. So they can definitely go more than 2 months without a drink.

2nd edit: And the original 7 are all dead. The last died on 15th Slate, 9 weeks to the day from the last drink any dwarf took (but I don't know who took the last one).

Incidentally, it's been 2 weeks since the first dwarf died, and no miasma has been seen. I guess I'll continue a bit to do some miasma science as well. Just how long does it take before a corpse starts to rot and produce miasma. I wonder if dying from dehydration slows it down? No way to tell in my current test, since they all did.

And after continuing, 3 corpses started spewing miasma 17 days after death, and 2 at 18 days. I was unable to determine the date of first miasma for 2 corpses because they were obscured by clouds of miasma from other nearby corpses. I've added a new tab to the spreadsheet with this data.

Also, despite the fort doing no trading nor meeting with the liaison, and making minimal items, a group of 20 migrants arrived on 16th Slate. I thought the number of migrants was supposed to be related to created or traded wealth. I don't have anyone with appraiser skill, so I don't know how much wealth I created, but it sure can't be much. All they created was: 7 beds, 7 rock cabinets, 13 rock doors, 8 rock tables, 8 rock thrones, 11 logs, 288 stones, 12 rough gems, 10 mechanisms and 29 corpses. That's enough to attract 20 migrants? Wow, things must be tough back at the Mountainhome.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 06:22:32 pm by khearn »
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Blue_Dwarf

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 06:47:18 pm »

Actually, I didn't notice much difference in the rate of consumption during the busy 6 months and the idle 6 months, but I didn't look at that aspect very closely. Just skimming the numbers doesn't show anything obvious to me, though.

I just added a chart to the spreadsheet that shows the drinks/day and eats/day for the period between each data point. Except for the spike in drinking at the end, it doesn't seem like there is a difference between the first 6 months and the last.

I'm comparing your number to some data from my farming tests. Your numbers are slightly lower, which I believe is caused by the higher activity of your dwarves.
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UristMcHuman

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 06:58:06 pm »

Cool test! It's nice to have some actual science tested in the game. I ought to do this with the growth rate of plants/trees, or even this, at some point.
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khearn

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 07:17:50 pm »

And just as I was about to abandon the fort to start a new one, one of the migrants huddling outside in the rain withdrew from society (such as it is). I've always read that strange moods are triggered by digging, the more you dig, the more moods you get. But I haven't done any digging in about 9 months, and not much before then. I just counted and have dug out a total of 760 tiles. That's less than 6 11x11 rooms. I was counting on avoiding moods for my original 7 by not mining much. Looks like I just got lucky instead. Someone needs to do some science on what causes moods.
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FuzzyZergling

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 07:24:17 pm »

Also, despite the fort doing no trading nor meeting with the liaison, and making minimal items, a group of 20 migrants arrived on 16th Slate. I thought the number of migrants was supposed to be related to created or traded wealth. I don't have anyone with appraiser skill, so I don't know how much wealth I created, but it sure can't be much. All they created was: 7 beds, 7 rock cabinets, 13 rock doors, 8 rock tables, 8 rock thrones, 11 logs, 288 stones, 12 rough gems, 10 mechanisms and 29 corpses. That's enough to attract 20 migrants? Wow, things must be tough back at the Mountainhome.
You forgot to add smoothing and engraving to the list.
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khearn

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 07:28:09 pm »

Also, despite the fort doing no trading nor meeting with the liaison, and making minimal items, a group of 20 migrants arrived on 16th Slate. I thought the number of migrants was supposed to be related to created or traded wealth. I don't have anyone with appraiser skill, so I don't know how much wealth I created, but it sure can't be much. All they created was: 7 beds, 7 rock cabinets, 13 rock doors, 8 rock tables, 8 rock thrones, 11 logs, 288 stones, 12 rough gems, 10 mechanisms and 29 corpses. That's enough to attract 20 migrants? Wow, things must be tough back at the Mountainhome.
You forgot to add smoothing and engraving to the list.

Ah yes, there was some of that, albeit by completely unskilled workers. But I usually have created a lot more wealth by the second spring. The next test I'll make sure to start with a dwarf with a point in appraisal so I can see the created wealth.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2011, 08:57:57 pm »

Should have 3 tests, 7 isolated dwarves, 7 dwarves constantly talking and 7 constantly working. Plus, getting rid of vermin is a must! They could've contaminated results D:

Captain Xenon

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 10:45:43 pm »

!!Science!! worthy of Vault-Tec (maybe the mountainhome is radioactive now, from the pitchblend doomsday mechanism?)

there IS a way to see exact dates for events, but this requires having an engraver working on a large scale. repeating your test, i would recommend using a control group as well as a test group- all migrants are in the control group of course (not locked in a sealed vault). migrant survival can go way up simply by designating a food stockpile and then collecting plants above ground. if you dump a few stones outside the fort before you seal it, then they can have a chance at proper survival, which can lead to additional tests on that map in the future.

at this point, my curiosity is highest about how large a pasture needs to be for one breeding pair of herbivores.
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PhantomXD

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2011, 10:53:44 pm »

at this point, my curiosity is highest about how large a pasture needs to be for one breeding pair of herbivores.

found this useful you might to
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krenshala

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Re: Food & Drink Science
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 11:53:01 am »

When you view [a]ctivities, it will list the date for the entry down in the lower right, though it does leave that date off the copy that gets written to the gamelog.  I've used that record to find out when a particular dwarf began a mood, the date a caravan/liaison got to the map, or when a particular dwarf died (i've been making my own record of events as my fort progresses).

I agree with the suggestion of having 7 idle dwarves, 7 busy dwarves and 7 isolated dwarves.  If you lower your popcap to 20 or 25, you could probably also have a control group of 7 "normal" dwarves in a surface fortress, depending on the effort you want to put in. ;)

As for how to get things counted right between groups, use stockpiles that don't accept barrels then it should be one stack per stockpile tile (though I'm not sure if the stacks will all be the same size).
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