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[Loud Whispers]

If Kobolds were cold blooded and inactive animals (for the most part), that would be realistic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

how about this they survive of of pests, now bare in mind that if a dog could kill about 50 of these things if they were unarmed i don't think that they could really hunt anything larger than a cat. now if the could hunt vermin fish eat moss and plants and grow them they probably could survive

A. Even dwarves can eat vermin (in emergencies). It's just not respected in worldgen yet,
B. Actually, dogs can't kill "about 50 of those things," because metal dagger+clothes>no armor/weapons. One-on-one, the dog would have a chance, but 50-to-one means the dog's kibble.


Assume that they have about the same mass-to-calories-consumed ration as a human. That means that they eat a bit less than 1/3 of what a human does, because IIRC kobolds are size 20,000 compared to humans' 70,000. So, about one human-sized meal per day...say, one steak with some wild rat on the side or the equivalent, daily. Assuming that that one unit of meat = 1 real-world steak, that means that 23-27 kobolds can be fed for about a day on one cow slaughtered, and still leave the fat and bones. If they subsist entirely on parasitism, that means that kobolds are unlikely to be numerous or form large settlements. But if each unit of meat feeds a human for a week or two (as dwarves are sated by one unit of food about every that often), then a single unit of meat (~5% of a cow) could satisfy an entire kobold village's hunger for a day or so (depending on the size of the village; assuming around 50ish), which allows a fair population of kobolds to steal meat from the tables of humans.
I think that they should be more like Vikings were, but exaggerated into their "raider" role and mixed with...something stealthy and land-based other than ninjas. They make their own food (raising cavies or cats or chickens or something for slaughter), letting them forage in the summer and gathering rats for winter, and raiding for stuff they can't make but want. Which, having little more tech than smart apes in a society that includes steel, is a lot. They support these thieves on a combination of surplus livestock and, yes, stolen food.

[Loud Whispers]

But if they subsisted purely on stolen food, they would still die off very quickly, allow them to scavenge, and the problem is only prolonged. Allowing them to forage fixes this a bit, but still is quite dangerous for a kobold. Cave farms anyone?

[squeakyReaper]

If the game can justify how bones can be consumed for more than... Flavor, bonecarn allows them quite a meal anywhere. Graverobbing little guys. Otherwise... I don't think we could justify having them as a proper civ.

Beastmen already form congo lines, and have camps under ground. Perhaps Kobolds could be demoted to the same fate? Really small, 30-50 bold civs could be held together by the kidnapping of a few livestock here and there, especially with our new zoning system in the coming update. Gives Humans more of a motivation to protect their stuff.

[Loud Whispers]

If the game can justify how bones can be consumed for more than... Flavor, bonecarn allows them quite a meal anywhere. Graverobbing little guys. Otherwise... I don't think we could justify having them as a proper civ.

Beastmen already form congo lines, and have camps under ground. Perhaps Kobolds could be demoted to the same fate? Really small, 30-50 bold civs could be held together by the kidnapping of a few livestock here and there, especially with our new zoning system in the coming update. Gives Humans more of a motivation to protect their stuff.

Toady has said in the next update Kobolds will be found in small-medium numbers in caves, and will actually survive world gen!
And Hyenas already eat bones for nutrition... It's not something out of the ordinary back on Earth.

[G-Flex]

Assume that they have about the same mass-to-calories-consumed ratio as a human.

I'm not sure this is a reasonable assumption, for the record. I could be wrong, but I think smaller animals tend to consume more in terms of calories per unit body mass.

If they subsist entirely on parasitism, that means that kobolds are unlikely to be numerous or form large settlements. But if each unit of meat feeds a human for a week or two (as dwarves are sated by one unit of food about every that often), then a single unit of meat (~5% of a cow) could satisfy an entire kobold village's hunger for a day or so (depending on the size of the village; assuming around 50ish), which allows a fair population of kobolds to steal meat from the tables of humans.

Thing is, I don't think kobolds even form anything we'd call a "village". They have necessarily simple social structures and basically just live in caves. It's okay if it's unlikely for them to have large settlements, because they aren't really intended to.

[Loud Whispers]

We could have Kobolds banding together to the point where it would be beneficial for them to start building their own accommodation.
(Hundreds of Kobolds in massive Kobold sieges anyone?)

[knutor]

That is the way I remember Dragon Mountain, Dungeon and Dragons, portraying them.  Stealing magic wands and firing them off whilly nilly.  Making shrinking traps, that dropped the adventurer down mouse holes.  And lotsa poison blow darts.

I don't see a kobold as a small human.  I see a dwarf as a small human.  A kobold is a small dwarf.  Emaciated.  Something that picks up turds and eats them.  A few bees was just the logic, I felt was necessary to portray this in DF.  Which has no bile, to my knowledge.  But does have vomit piles.

Maybe they could be the stealthy vacuum cleaner race, and rid us of misplaced socks, blood and vomit.  And tidy up our fort, as they go about their business of robbing us blind.  Vomit is  nourishment to ants. 

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Quarterblue]

It would be cool to allow Kobolds to trade, they would then sell stuff they've stolen ("Hey, what's that masterwork hammer I lost a year ago doing in YOUR wagon?"), also they could buy food and that could prevent them from starving. Is there any way to have kobold caravans with messing with the raw files?

[G-Flex]

That is the way I remember Dragon Mountain, Dungeon and Dragons, portraying them.

Here's the problem: This isn't Dragon Mountain or D&D.

[GreatWyrmGold]

But if they subsisted purely on stolen food, they would still die off very quickly, allow them to scavenge, and the problem is only prolonged. Allowing them to forage fixes this a bit, but still is quite dangerous for a kobold. Cave farms anyone?

A. Kobolds can't eat plants.
B. I suggested that they be...cat-herds, basically. That is basically farms, but with animals.
C. Why is foraging dangerous for kobolds?

If the game can justify how bones can be consumed for more than... Flavor, bonecarn allows them quite a meal anywhere. Graverobbing little guys. Otherwise... I don't think we could justify having them as a proper civ.

People have eaten marrow from bones in times of hardship.

Beastmen already form congo lines, and have camps under ground. Perhaps Kobolds could be demoted to the same fate? Really small, 30-50 bold civs could be held together by the kidnapping of a few livestock here and there, especially with our new zoning system in the coming update. Gives Humans more of a motivation to protect their stuff.

I don't like the idea of kobolds being wandering wild animals, nor do I like how animalpeople (either above- or below-ground) are, nor do I want my idea for them to be inflicted on kobolds. As far as the fortress mode side goes, kobolds are pretty much fine IMHO.

Assume that they have about the same mass-to-calories-consumed ratio as a human.

I'm not sure this is a reasonable assumption, for the record. I could be wrong, but I think smaller animals tend to consume more in terms of calories per unit body mass.

It makes things easier, and kobolds have less than 1/3 an average human's mass.

If they subsist entirely on parasitism, that means that kobolds are unlikely to be numerous or form large settlements. But if each unit of meat feeds a human for a week or two (as dwarves are sated by one unit of food about every that often), then a single unit of meat (~5% of a cow) could satisfy an entire kobold village's hunger for a day or so (depending on the size of the village; assuming around 50ish), which allows a fair population of kobolds to steal meat from the tables of humans.

Thing is, I don't think kobolds even form anything we'd call a "village". They have necessarily simple social structures and basically just live in caves. It's okay if it's unlikely for them to have large settlements, because they aren't really intended to.

"Village-sized group" doesn't roll off the tounge so well.

That is the way I remember Dragon Mountain, Dungeon and Dragons, portraying them.

Here's the problem: This isn't Dragon Mountain or D&D.

Here's the problem: That's not one.
(Not a problem, that is.)
Hungry heads were probably inspired by vargoiles (horrible mispelling). Voracious cave crawlers were probably inspired by carrion crawlers. D&D is iconic fantasy; DF tries to create something like iconic fantasy. It fits together that way.
Dunno about Dragon Age, though.

[Loud Whispers]

In response to my quote:

A. I've already gone over Kobolds being carnivores...
B. Farms cover animal husbandry.
C. Giant Badgers, Giants, Giant Scorpions, Lions, Giant Lions, Jaguars, Dwarves, Giant Jaguars, Land Sharks, Zombies, other Kobolds, Gremlins, Trolls, Wolves, Dire Wolves, rogue cats, Humans, the odd psycho Elf, a sock, a bronze colossus, everything called Steve, Goblins, the Thing, anything that can hold a weapon, anything that can kill without a weapon, Dragons...

[G-Flex]

Here's the problem: That's not one.
(Not a problem, that is.)
Hungry heads were probably inspired by vargoiles (horrible mispelling). Voracious cave crawlers were probably inspired by carrion crawlers. D&D is iconic fantasy; DF tries to create something like iconic fantasy. It fits together that way.
Dunno about Dragon Age, though.

All I'm saying is that something being the case in D&D (or any other work) does not mean it's necessarily so in DF. At all. Something being true in D&D isn't an argument for what is (or should be) true in DF whatsoever.

[Urist McDagger]

Here's the problem: That's not one.
(Not a problem, that is.)
Hungry heads were probably inspired by vargoiles (horrible mispelling). Voracious cave crawlers were probably inspired by carrion crawlers. D&D is iconic fantasy; DF tries to create something like iconic fantasy. It fits together that way.
Dunno about Dragon Age, though.

All I'm saying is that something being the case in D&D (or any other work) does not mean it's necessarily so in DF. At all. Something being true in D&D isn't an argument for what is (or should be) true in DF whatsoever.

Hi. Just wanted to say that, while that's true, the inverse is also true. That something is in another fantasy work isn't really an argument for it not being in DF. After all, DF isn't really a fantasy game so much as a fantasy generator. Doesn't including more options and potential make it more versatile? Why can't some kobolds be more of the wandering type, and some be of the more settled type, depending on what their situation is like during worldgen?

[Naros]

Among mammals, kleptoparasitism is considered a trait of hyenas and jackals, who steal from other carnivores' kills. But that doesn't mean that these species cannot hunt themselves, if the opportunity presents itself.

People don't seem to be aware that Lions steal more kills from Hyenas than the other way around. Now you do!