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[Deep Waters]

Considering that majority wins and I am the only one who even suggested it, it does not really matter right?
But let it stand there for now, might give someone else an idea to think outside of the box.

Besides.. majority rules does not mean that the minority should just shut up. Just pointing out the risk and maybe play a bit of devil's advocate if needed.

In the meantime I'll watch the FUN that is about to ensue while they are going to be chased by a bear and elven rangers, crossing a rope across a big river while they cannot swim and don't want their only source of magical knowledge get wet.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or they could just walk north in peace, evading the patrols. And then cross somewhere else where there is significant less attention and perhaps also less water to drown in.

It always matters, if only because I'm a stickler for accuracy.

I understand and agree with both of your latter points. I actually enjoy playing the devil's advocate, if necessary; it merely appeared to me as if you were changing your opinion, so I wanted to clarify. As for crossing the river... I'll more likely be cringing behind a shield of fingers. ^dread^

Hmm. I change my vote for paddle across, and I think we should head south to the big cities, selling mana potions to the wizards.

I think we should go north. Considering how hard it is to keep that book dry (my solution is merely a last ditch one)...

The bear thing seems somewhat irrational to me. I mean, these are elves that are probably far smarter than us, and likely have better detection skills than Omo.

The further north we get, the less patrols we will encounter, methinks. We shouldn't follow too close to river, though, for it could hem us in if this turns into a chase.

I hereby change my vote (if I ever voted)

Done and done.

Lord Allagon- I assume by 'changing' you meant for me to remove you from the Bearstraction list? (Please just modify your existing post; our number of posts seem to be getting a bit long, and I don't want to force Monk to wade through the lot of them <<; )

Cellmonk- I counted even the expression of an opinion as a vote, so technically yes, you did vote.

[RAM]

I was always in favour of crossing to the north and never advocated crossing at night. Evading numerous trained hunters to cross a large river via a means that was not intended to be used that way doesn't sound like something that an elf from the city would consider practical. But Omo is the expert on such matters and it is true that if someone does not seem to be posing a threat that it is unlikely that the rangers would pursue them across the river or risk a scuffle on a rope dangling over a large river...

As for the bear, the rangers felt it appropriate to leave a warning about it, so it is not completely inconsequential, and just the commotion might attract some guards away, it would probably be the most interesting thing to happen all week... The problem arises in attracting it to the camp. So far, the only means I have heard of sending it there is to have Omo sneak into the camp and leave a lure. Now remember, the lure requires a trail for the bear to follow, and Omo is not perfect. The risk to Omo is the big flaw with the bearstraction...
 There is also the issue of the state of the guards. Escape would likely require only getting over the river, and bored guards can be slow to react and are likely distracted by their own efforts to find amusement. Something interesting, like a bear showing up, may serve to heighten awareness for some time...

[Deep Waters]

I was always in favour of crossing to the north and never advocated crossing at night. Evading numerous trained hunters to cross a large river via a means that was not intended to be used that way doesn't sound like something that an elf from the city would consider practical. But Omo is the expert on such matters and it is true that if someone does not seem to be posing a threat that it is unlikely that the rangers would pursue them across the river or risk a scuffle on a rope dangling over a large river...

As for the bear, the rangers felt it appropriate to leave a warning about it, so it is not completely inconsequential, and just the commotion might attract some guards away, it would probably be the most interesting thing to happen all week... The problem arises in attracting it to the camp. So far, the only means I have heard of sending it there is to have Omo sneak into the camp and leave a lure. Now remember, the lure requires a trail for the bear to follow, and Omo is not perfect. The risk to Omo is the big flaw with the bearstraction...
 There is also the issue of the state of the guards. Escape would likely require only getting over the river, and bored guards can be slow to react and are likely distracted by their own efforts to find amusement. Something interesting, like a bear showing up, may serve to heighten awareness for some time...

I see. I'm sorry, I must have read some suggestions you made about an option and assumed that you personally supported the option. I'll make sure to change it in a moment.

Put that way, crossing the river might actually work. (I still think the bearstraction idea is unfeasible, though.) However, I think a potential problem with the whole "run right through the rangers" idea might be the Council's reaction to the whole thing. It's one thing for a pair of Elves (one of them a former Ranger himself) to sneak out of the country under the noses of the Rangers, it's another thing entirely for those two to flagrantly evade what amounts to a large portion of the Elven military force. It could cause them to lose face, even if only in the eyes of other Elves. It might also harm our cause about- since we were the ones to crystallize support for what was previously an unpopular idea (sending emissaries out into the world to help against the necromancers instead of sealing ourselves off), it might weaken the position of those who want to reach out and strengthen the cause of those who advocate isolationism. (And look how that turned out for America. <<; )

It's a long view, certainly. But elves have long memories, and we don't how proud (read: arrogant, vain, conceited, egotistic) they are normally, let alone the Council. People in positions of power tend to have overinflated ideas about their self-worth. An idea that may look better in the short term might contribute to (or cause) a far more difficult situation later on.

[Angle]

I'd also like to change to going north. Seems much safer.

[Deep Waters]

I'd also like to change to going north. Seems much safer.

Done.

I think I'll just edit this one post when someone desires to change their vote. That'll keep the spam levels... slightly lower. Hopefully. <<;

EDITS:

oh by the way I may have sated this before, but I'm for night crossing.

Ah, you must be the one I accidentally deleted! I'll get to that shortly. EDIT: Oh, wait, nope. I put you down for daycrossing, so it can't be you. Dammit. 

Head north

Is that a vote I spy, good sir?

Indeed it is good sir

'Tis done, good sir!

[racnor]

How would the rangers be able to identify Nym? they would know Omo, but no one would be certain who he was running with, and Omo never encountered the council at all

[Grek]

We can communicate with the bear well enough to get it to go to the Ranger Camp, I'm pretty sure.

[Deep Waters]

How would the rangers be able to identify Nym? they would know Omo, but no one would be certain who he was running with, and Omo never encountered the council at all

It's not like everyone in Yicelafo is trying to escape Elf Country right now, and even if they were they wouldn't be heading towards the Land of Marauding Necromancers. Once they've realized we're gone (which may or may not take a while- we're not exactly known for our Legendary Social Skills) and they get reports of two elves (one of them a deserter, and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to identify Omo as being our best friend, as it seems like he's the only one we really hang around with/know in our hometown- plus, wouldn't it be possible that they'd think we talked Omo into deserting when it was practically the other way around?) running the border only a few days after our disappearance, it won't be hard for them to put two-and-two together.

We can communicate with the bear well enough to get it to go to the Ranger Camp, I'm pretty sure.

But can we keep it from causing too much damage? Can we communicate to the bear that the Rangers are unlikely to want to hurt it, thus keeping it from running off at the first arrow that lands at its feet? Heck, can we even communicate to it that we want it to cause havoc for a while, instead of just lumbering through, gobbling up the fish (or whatever we put at the end of the trail to get its attention), and leaving? Without being able to communicate directly with the bear (at least as much as you can communicate directly with a bear in this universe; I'm not sure how articulate we could be and I doubt we'll ever find out, animal communication being Life magic and all), it's simply too unpredictable to be worth the amount of time it'd take to do it- which would be at least two hours to go there and back, and that's not including the time (and risk, probably to Omo since we don't exactly have Move Silently +20 as one of our skills) needed to set up the trail first.

I honestly liked the bearstraction idea when I thought we had a chance with communicating meaningfully with it. Without that, it's too risky to chance.

[Grek]

I'm going to assume that your repeated misrepresentation of the bearstraction plan is due to you having not read the original suggestion rather than intentionally doing so to make the idea look bad. As such, I'm going to quote it again for everyone to see.

1. Go find that bear that the trailsign warned about before and use a combination of Calm Animal and knowledge of the location of delicious honeycomb also mention by the trailsign to wheedle the bear into serving as a distraction for us by screwing around in the ranger's tents. Time this so that the bear is at the camp after dark.
2. While the rangers are being distracted by our bearstraction, cross the river under cover of darkness.
3. Run like hell.

So, key points that people seem to keep missing: We already know where to find a bear. We already know where to find some delicious honeycomb. The Bearstraction plan, in detail, is to cast Calm Animal on the bear, then offer it some of the honeycomb. When it eats the honeycomb, offer to give it the rest if it will come with you to just outside the ranger camp. Keep in mind that when Monk commented on the proposal, he said that we would be able to get the bear to come with us and the only potential problem he mentioned was that we'd get back with the bear after dark. Which is what the original plan called for and what I was voting for.

Bottom line: We have no absolutely good reason to think that the Bearstraction plan is non-viable from a "failure to communicate with bears" standpoint. The entire discussion of "will we be able to convince the bear to work with us" is 100% a red herring based on people's preconceptions of how elves, magic, fauna and rangers work and 0% actual valid problems with the idea.

[Deep Waters]

I did say I liked the idea, I just said that I wasn't convinced it would work. I read the original suggestion; I suppose I was just tangled up in my preconceptions, as you put them- not about elves, magic, etc. (because if you'd just read my previous posts you'd understand that I was attempting to work out the mechanics behind animal communication and how it would apply to this situation, not come up with my own ideas about it and stick to them like a stubborn ass) but about the methodology of getting the bear to be our distraction. Speaking of which, I've had other problems with how the idea would work; I just never mentioned them because I didn't think we'd be able to get the bear to the Ranger's camp in the first place. I'll concede to you on that score, but now I have another problem to pose to you: what will it do when it gets there? How will we keep its interest in the camp? Are we just going to slather honey all over the Ranger tents? Sounds... way complex, way time-consuming, way too-easy-to-get-caught, and way too do-we-even-have-enough-honey. Do you have an idea about how this will work?

Keep in mind that I really do like the bearstraction idea- it's quite original, to say the least. I'm merely playing devil's advocate- the fact that I'm honestly skeptical has nothing to do with it.

[Grek]

There's the beauty of the plan. Once we get the bear into the ranger's camp, we don't actually need it to do anything particular. The fact that there is a bear in the ranger's camp is sufficent distraction for our needs. Anything additionally disruptive/distracting that the bear ends up doing is an unexpected bonus that will only help us. Even if the bear goes in only to be promptly chased out by the rangers, we've still won. They're focused on the bear and we're already half way across the river.

[RAM]

It will remain interested in the camp because it found food there, and the rangers will be fine because they are rangers and they are numerous and the bear will be calm. It should just be something interesting that isn't near the crossing. Having said that, it is still awkward to make happen, what with having to physically go right into their camp, it means remaining in patrolled territory for longer, and there will almost certainly be some people who remain on duty at the crossing, and it will likely one to stop us, and the commotion will likely make them more alert...

[Deep Waters]

There's the beauty of the plan. Once we get the bear into the ranger's camp, we don't actually need it to do anything particular. The fact that there is a bear in the ranger's camp is sufficent distraction for our needs. Anything additionally disruptive/distracting that the bear ends up doing is an unexpected bonus that will only help us. Even if the bear goes in only to be promptly chased out by the rangers, we've still won. They're focused on the bear and we're already half way across the river.

Hm... alright. I get your reasoning. There's still way too much that can go wrong, so while I like it, I can't really support it. I won't try to blatantly shoot it down anymore, though.

Also, Monk needs to check out his own thread more often. How many pages is it since the last time he posted now? I'll take the blame for it, as it's mostly my fault (what can I say? I get really enthusiastic about things I enjoy ^poker face^), but still. I suspect he's too busy with the new DF release to pay attention. (Which means he's probably not going to be coming back for awhile... damn. )

[Grek]

The key isn't to try to figure out a complicated plan that will work if everything goes right and then try to make it go right, but instead to think of a plan that works out for you regardless of what happens. This is one of those plans. Consider: Even if the absolute worst case happens, and we get caught by the rangers, we now have a legit excuse for running towards the river as fast as we can: We're running away from the bear!

[Deep Waters]

But then we have to explain why we're there in the first place. Especially Omo. Even in the best case possible, we still have the most important obstacle to take care: What will our mother think?



But seriously. Siccing a bear on fellow elves (no matter how "peacefully") may not fly with the folks back home, so to speak. Plus, the long-term ramifications I discussed earlier, with the whole humiliation factor involving two elves (one of them a deserter, the other with no combat experience to speak of) escaping a large portion of the Elf "military".

EDIT: ... Oh dear. I did it again. <<;