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[RabidAnubis]

This was partially prompted by Captaintastics descriptions of the game, being Gamer, Simulator, and constructionist.

He missed me at least.  Perhaps he missed others.

I sort of think that one of the neat things about Dwarf fortress .40d above this version is the way the stories are made.  The heroes are ridiculous, the enemies even more so, but in the latest version (And 2010 in general) I feel less like as if I am in the land of legends or a storybook, and more like a realistic person.

I believe dwarf fortress has 3 or 4 main components to the art, you may disagree, but anyways my complaint is on the story part of it.

So, .40d was still ridiculously realistic.  Don't get me wrong, but I want the game to act like that too.  I mean, .40d FELT like the age of Myth.  The warriors could launch goblins, a hero could recover from wounds, and holistic detective walked through lava. 

It felt like a tale, I mean, when you talk about battles long ago the tales do become bloated.  But the tales were ridiculous.  But the damage was real, there was still damage to the heart and the lungs....

They were said to be ridiculously strong.  And the hero, only after slaying a thousand goblins cut the enemy right in the heart, slaying the general, his body flying in the air for a minute, everyone watching it until it fell, landing in the lava, slowly melting away.  And he was promoted to king, and for a thousand years he ruled his kingdom.

But 2010 sort of feels more like real life.  Even though there are dragons the fighting doesn't seem to be overblown.  There isn't too much goblin launching.  And I dislike this.  It doesn't feel like as if there are heroes.  It feels more like as if they are people.  With a personality and problems.  These people aren't King Arthur, they may be good warriors, but they aren't gods on earth!

Perhaps what the game should do, is make the realism be progressive.  So for instance, in the age of myth a champion would have no issue slaying a thousand, because the player is probably in the age of fairytales, and when your grandpa reads you a story about the fort your in, it's going to be ridiculous.  Everything important will be much more bloated than it was, and everything unimportant won't matter at all. 

But as you approach a realistic time, perhaps the game should narrow the boundaries set by stuff.  Important things should still feel important but not legendary.  Real life stuff should matter more, the small, unimportant stuff should mean things.  Heroes should be less of gods and actually have problems.  Maybe people won't even realize their importance until they die of old age.

I know I explained this bad, but does anyone agree, disagree?

[Talvieno]

I understand what you're saying, though I must admit I never played 40d. It would be interesting (and indeed, enjoyable) to experience something like what you describe - it would definitely make it a lot easier to write your own legends - the game would sound like a legend already. However, from what I gather, many (if not most) people like how it's becoming more realistic (i.e. digging enemies in sieges, more accurate cave-in physics, destroyable walls, etc.), myself included. I agree that it would be great to experience the game like this, but I think if anything is done, the game shouldn't be completely reverted back to its previous state, with flying goblins and superdwarves. Perhaps a realism slider would be in order, but knowing first-hand how difficult it is to implement that sort of thing in a game (and I can't imagine how hard it would be to implement it in something as complex as Dwarf Fortress), I can't say I hold out too much hope for it.
That's my two cents.

[drilltooth]

I could see that, Scaling factor tied to world state, perhaps in the stat boost for achieving legendary. so, in myth, even a farmer can grab a hammer, and in one swing, win the battle, and invent golf. but as the world passes into later ages, you won;t quite get as awesome, at least without hard work and good luck.
maybe 2x the bouns for myth, 1.3 for legend, and so on until in endstage worlds, being a legend doesn't count for much except nice furniture.

[coolio678]

huh. It seems like a cool idea, but it would be ridiculous to do. However, there are plans for implementation for the next decade, I'm sure there will be time.

[Loud Whispers]

There is something more gratifying though.

Seeing your fortress, burning in the night.

The humble soap maker, hefts his hammer high.

And the beginning of the end comes nigh.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Then he, you know, smashes his way to the surface to rip the heart out of that Godzilla-Haunted Mountain titan with his bare hands, before a dwarf pulls the lever.

[knutor]

Same thoughts here, Whisper.  That's just how I read Capt's posts, too.  Give me more fantasy, not realism in dwarf fortress.  While I like the deepness, and map generation, there is no way I want to sit here and look in a mirror of real life.  I have enough to memorize as it is.  I don't wanna keep looking up stuff on wiki to keep up with trap trends.  I want to figure them out myself.  We certainly won't be able to that if things become more realistic.  How many of you can read an electronics schematic or building blueprint?  I cannot, nor do I want to.  Yeah, I agree with you, before any considerations as to the design become anymore realistic, the basics of it being entertainment first and foremost, must be fleshed out.  Its not fun moving a squad, and not having it 'move' in a timely fashion.  Losing dwarfs to their own dumb AI decisions.  Don't get me wrong it is, but its not if its foolishly easy and unavoidable.  Nor is it not fun seeing unrealistic long floors built out from the sides of stairways to infinity without stilts, or supports.  While they are handy to have, they don't add enjoyment to the process, they add, clutter.  We should be able to mass pit without a pit.  Air tight room, anyone?  Or simply dunking cages in a murky pool.  Pits are fun, but it shouldn't be the ONLY way.  When the clutter is removed and fat trimmed, then I hope they move ahead.  I am in no way interested in this reputation system, Toady mentions for the future of DF.  Every single game I ever was involved in; that added reputation points, added micro transaction and CC purchases.  If a Civie likes me, good.  If it doesn't so what?  They can dance on these spears, its what I put them there for.  Just give me a way to make them happy or sad, I don't need to know the awful reputation points involved behind it.  The unrealist question should not be answered without atleast one unrealistic answer and one realistic answer.  One sidedness is bad design.  We can't initiate trade when our stockpiles are filled to the brim, we HAVE to wait until a foreigner comes.  Is that real?  Heck no.  Let us initiate more stuff.  There is fun in freedom.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[bitterhorn]

I'm actively practicing being more succinct, so I'll just add one sentence to this thread:  I usually like things to start out believable and get gradually & progressively more surreal.

[Vember]

Sorry, it is hard for me too see you point.

With all the modes out there, I believe you easily find the balance of realism personally suited for you. The greatest thing about DF is that it is soooo customizable.

As for me, I thoroughly embrace realism. I love the Legends mode, and I have probably spent more time analyzing the histories of conflicts in my generated worlds than actually playing fortress mode.

That said, I recently got astonished by a story of one Vamari (arctic-fox-like ice-dwelling people from Civilization Forge mod). He had been abducted by goblins as a cub, got brainwashed, then sent on the frontlines as sword fodder, became a Warlord (!) of the Goblin civilization, commanded (and won) something about 2 dozen battles, and managed to personally slay 8000 (!!!) enemies. Most of them were Vamari as well. He died of old age when he was around 50.

Morale:Heroes are still there.

[RabidAnubis]

I wasn't thinking it would be that hard.  Just for age of myth make it so that the Strength agility and toughness are still upgradeable stats, so people have a possibility of becoming impossibly powerful.

[JohnieRWilkins]

I think the reason you're not liking adventure mode is due to how weak the current demigods are. Demigods, as chlidren of the gods, should ideally be able to launch goblins into orbit with mauls. Instead, they are only slightly beefed up peasants. I hope that this gets fixed when toady rewrites adventurer roles.

Also, a better way to accomplish your goal is to make characters level to legendary and past only when they fight legendary enemies. Skills past legendary should give unproportionally large bonuses. So the effect is: as the amount of megabeasts dwindles with time, (and you enter a mundane age) so does the number of superlegendary actors.

[Loud Whispers]

I think the reason you're not liking adventure mode is due to how weak the current demigods are. Demigods, as chlidren of the gods, should ideally be able to launch goblins into orbit with mauls. Instead, they are only slightly beefed up peasants. I hope that this gets fixed when toady rewrites adventurer roles.

Also, a better way to accomplish your goal is to make characters level to legendary and past only when they fight legendary enemies. Skills past legendary should give unproportionally large bonuses. So the effect is: as the amount of megabeasts dwindles with time, (and you enter a mundane age) so does the number of superlegendary actors.

There are 5 legendary levels, this disproportionate awesomeness already exists ;]

[RabidAnubis]

I'm talking about fortress mode...

I rarely play adventure mode...

[JohnieRWilkins]

I'm talking about fortress mode...

I rarely play adventure mode...

It still applies. Maybe your fort will naturally draw demigod immigrants when rich enough. Maybe you can attract enough big baddies to train up your peasants to pure awesome status.

[Loud Whispers]

You just know if that were ever implemented, they would be abused the crap out of

[jaxler]

maybe the realistic stuff got more realist wile the fantasy stuff got more fantasy-y

though i think plegue would be a nice add on