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[peskyninja]

I mean, WTF is this:

[antymattar]

The issue with that is that then we have, effectively, a map that uses 8 squares for every square in the z-dimension, and therefore is seven times smaller than it could have been, as a result. Since programming is reductionistic and analytical, we'll have to settle for a smallest unit at a given point. The atom of DF, as it were. Until we get parallel quantum computers..

It happens either way. If we want anything more complex/accurate/better, it will obviously require more cpu.

I mean, WTF is this:

*Epic moment*

Its from Asdf movie 1 or something.

[Silverionmox]

The issue with that is that then we have, effectively, a map that uses 8 squares for every square in the z-dimension, and therefore is seven times smaller than it could have been, as a result. Since programming is reductionistic and analytical, we'll have to settle for a smallest unit at a given point. The atom of DF, as it were. Until we get parallel quantum computers..

It happens either way. If we want anything more complex/accurate/better, it will obviously require more cpu.

We're talking about reducing the world size to 12,5% of the current size here... that's not trivial.

There are other possibilities though. One could for example track bodies of water and keep track of all the stuff that has been diluted into it. That way, it's still possible to track eg. a pool becoming salty over the years, without having to determine where exactly in the pool that salt is at any given time. The same could be done for the total volume of a particular body of water: that would make it unnecessary to run the fluid algorithm to determine where the three 6/7 holes in the lake are exactly at any time, because Cog, Ral and Urist Ral drank from it back in the winter of 642 when they were locked out. That might free up enough capacity to consider adding a few oily liquid types.

[knutor]

Nothing comes from nothing. 

Maybe this new-ish fluid system could be a splash fill principle for subterranean engineering and updraft separation principles.  Anything greater than the wt of 1/7 units of water, will remain motionless.  Anything under, will move about.  Aslong as dwarfs kept water flowing over near fortified walls, it could stay pure to drink, infinately, as a result of this separation principle.  However, at the moment it rests still nonadjacent to a fortified wall; it becomes contaminated regardless of the basin material, mixture, or floating, or sinking contents, there in.

I'm not interested in tracking pollutants, only tracking purity for the sake of thirst quenching.  Bacteria will flow off in moving water, making it safe, or turning sludge into drinking water.  But how does a dwarf make a moving body of water from scratch without screw pumps, is certainly a trick to solve.  Anything that was once pure water, but is now polluted becomes a sludge.  A pool of sludge must behave in accordance to the laws of treasure rich gelatinousness.  Many dwarfs know an unmonitored sludge pool is a breeding grounds for treasure rich gelatinous cubes.  And much worse the gelatinous donut.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[antymattar]

Thats the fun part. Right now we have liquids that flow all over the place if theres another liquid under them. We might be able to have liquids that do the same if they have 2/3/4 units under them or more. Also, it wouldnt really mean that the map has W*7 more water tiles because it wouldnt erally takem up linear memmory.

[Draco18s]

Lets just say for sake of argument that you have this fluid system and the first two liquids you add are:

Ammonia (great for disinfecting the wounded) and Vinegar (great for preserving vegetables).

For shits and giggles you decide to make a pond of both and connect them via floodgates.

What happens when you mix the two?

In the suggested systems they either

mix creating a hybrid liquid
float on top of each other (oil and water comparison)
pollute each other and become generic sludge

Except that is not how they'd behave in the real world.  They'd do none of those things.

Ammonia in NH₃ and Vinegar is (actively) CH₃COOH (diluted with water).

One is an acid.

The other is a base.

I don't actually know what these two do when mixed, but I would be surprised if it didn't foam and produce water as one of the byproducts.

Basically:

Any fluid system you can think up is too simplistic for the sheer number of reactions possible.  Some liquids explode violently when combined.

[Buzzing_Beard]

     Draco18s: "Lets just say for sake of argument that you have this fluid system and the first two liquids you add are:
     Ammonia (great for disinfecting the wounded) and Vinegar (great for preserving vegetables)."

I know of one particular viscous liquid that can do both of those things.

     Draco18s: "For shits and giggles you decide to make a pond of both and connect them via floodgates.
     What happens when you mix the two?"

Honey mixed with water becomes hydromel. Once it ferments you have two ponds worth of mead.

I had this idea for mixing: link

[King Mir]

I think just being able to specify multiple fluids that always mix into something else on contact would be a huge step. Most fluid reactions can be implemented as material transformations one way or another.

After that, yeah a system of layering would be necessary, not just for oil and water, but perhaps more commonly water and sand.

The issue with that is that then we have, effectively, a map that uses 8 squares for every square in the z-dimension, and therefore is seven times smaller than it could have been, as a result. Since programming is reductionistic and analytical, we'll have to settle for a smallest unit at a given point. The atom of DF, as it were. Until we get parallel quantum computers..

But most squares would be free of them. So you could only allocate an array of fluids with levels when a tile has at least one fluid in it. As long as rock and air remain 1 thing per tile, there would not be a huge memory hit.

[antymattar]

I think just being able to specify multiple fluids that always mix into something else on contact would be a huge step. Most fluid reactions can be implemented as material transformations one way or another.

After that, yeah a system of layering would be necessary, not just for oil and water, but perhaps more commonly water and sand.

The issue with that is that then we have, effectively, a map that uses 8 squares for every square in the z-dimension, and therefore is seven times smaller than it could have been, as a result. Since programming is reductionistic and analytical, we'll have to settle for a smallest unit at a given point. The atom of DF, as it were. Until we get parallel quantum computers..

But most squares would be free of them. So you could only allocate an array of fluids with levels when a tile has at least one fluid in it. As long as rock and air remain 1 thing per tile, there would not be a huge memory hit.

BINGO! Exactly what I wanted to say! You get a cookie!

[GreatWyrmGold]

And it will be hard to know how many oil jugs are necessary to create 1/7 oil tile as one tile  can be huge or ridiculous small.

How many water buckets does it take to create 1/7 water?

Lets just say for sake of argument that you have this fluid system and the first two liquids you add are:

Ammonia (great for disinfecting the wounded) and Vinegar (great for preserving vegetables).

For shits and giggles you decide to make a pond of both and connect them via floodgates.

What happens when you mix the two?

In the suggested systems they either

mix creating a hybrid liquid
float on top of each other (oil and water comparison)
pollute each other and become generic sludge

Except that is not how they'd behave in the real world.  They'd do none of those things.

Ammonia in NH₃ and Vinegar is (actively) CH₃COOH (diluted with water).

One is an acid.

The other is a base.

I don't actually know what these two do when mixed, but I would be surprised if it didn't foam and produce water as one of the byproducts.

Basically:

Any fluid system you can think up is too simplistic for the sheer number of reactions possible.  Some liquids explode violently when combined.

I like the idea of having such things defined in the liquids' raws. So, water might have [MIX_PRODUCT:MAGMA:WALL:INORGANIC:OBSIDIAN] or something, and ammonia might have [MIX_PRODUCT:VINEGAR:LIQUID:FOAM] while vinegar has [MIX_PRODUCT:AMMONIA:ITEM:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:EXPLOSION], where INORGANIC:EXPLOSION is a pre-defined exploding inorganic material.

[antymattar]

Definately. It shouldnt be too complicated so if you want then you can make combinations for all the liquids.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I wonder how hard it would be to make mixing fluids spawn a creature...
"Instant Dragon^TM! Just add to water!"

Or maybe, "Instant Badger[supTM[/sup]! Just add to badger blood!"

[antymattar]

Hehe. Yeah. Im not really saying that there should be combinations to all liquids. We still have miasma so we might just get "sludge" or just have some liquids that dont mix at all. Also, I still think water should be a BASE liquid that has other liquids disolve into it. Also [NO_MIX] and [BASE] would be key here.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I know that it is a bit loony, but still...

I think that liquids should mix into new liquids, mix into non-liquids, or not mix at all if no reaction is defined in either liquid.

[antymattar]

Exactly. Thats why they would be able to evaporate/cleanse themselves. If you dont ad the tag that allows it to be purified into water then yes... one day... the world will all be filled with milk.  .

BTW, all liquids esentially turn into solids(If freezed).

FAKE EDIT:

If this idea is carried out, then I would be much more happy to see more DF made up liquids rather than real life liquids. You know how we have miasma and stuff. I would be happy to have made up liquids too.

Also, liquids that turn into solids will need a stone type for themselves. I know it seems complicated but it would be a major step forwards.