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[Silverionmox]

longer jobs have a high chance of being interrupted by hunger, thirst or Fun.

The way I see the coder getting around the hunger and thirst problem is to make it take much longer during the design phase, but not during the actual craft phase.  Actually making a master architect something to strive for.  It is after all, a factory, and not lowly workstation with a bench, tools and dwarf centerfolds.  It'd have to consume wood and metal faster than any furnace however, if it were pumping out items in bulk containers.  I'm fond of the idea, however, deep down, I just don't like the terminology, "Factory".  Sounds too technical, for enjoyment purposes.  What do you think?

Sincerely,
Knutor

I dislike the factory concept in that case. Setting up workspaces and constructing the machinery is a major part of the fun. For wargames I have other options.

[RabidAnubis]

longer jobs have a high chance of being interrupted by hunger, thirst or Fun.

The way I see the coder getting around the hunger and thirst problem is to make it take much longer during the design phase, but not during the actual craft phase.  Actually making a master architect something to strive for.  It is after all, a factory, and not lowly workstation with a bench, tools and dwarf centerfolds.  It'd have to consume wood and metal faster than any furnace however, if it were pumping out items in bulk containers.  I'm fond of the idea, however, deep down, I just don't like the terminology, "Factory".  Sounds too technical, for enjoyment purposes.  What do you think?

Sincerely,
Knutor

Then we'll stick with Constructor Arena.

[peskyninja]

I don't like this painting areas thing, I would preffer separated "generic" workshop parts with a variable size, but these "parts" would be considered buildings by the game.

[TBeholder]

I don't see any reason to make factories as such.
Buildings with multiple WORK_LOCATION and jobs/reactions requiring multiple workers - kind of a good idea, but not a hot stuff.
Activity zones? Production chains with set input and output would make things way more controllable without limitations of burrows. Also, having stockpiles and shops with more limited interaction would help a lot and get rid of wasting CPU cycles on AI pathfinding the routes that will only inconvenience you, going a wrong way and cancelling jobs.

On the other hand, here's a simpler, clearly implementable and more flexible way to have much the same FPS advantages and even greater controllability without unneeded spatial limitations (z-levels or otherwise). Again, filter out unwanted things, but only with a couple extra settings on stockpiles.

• Preferred source and destination buildings/zones - much like "Take from a stockpile" right now, plus an option to forbid all not allowed explicitly.
  Another use: to allow cooking seeds with no risk of frying your minimum seed stock you'd simply make a pile of the right size which is going to be filled first as closer to the brewery / farmer's workshop and is routed only to your farms and not the kitchen - very simple and rather foolproof.
• Allowed source and destination ranges explicitly set.
  Another use: while mining out a room, set a short-range pile nearby, so any stone from farther away won't ever get hauled here - and when the place is cleared and you want to build here, those stones are still right behind the corner until you order to build with them.

[Neonivek]

Factories are an Anarchism

and your idea of what a factory is (being a single building that ignores the tools and processes required to make something) is mostly imagined. Factories in real life have to be repurposed to do something else.

[knutor]

mostly imagined

I'm glad I don't have to imagine what a Goblin Lasher is in RL.  I only need to look at my wife.  Ooops.  Knutor scuttles off to add a longer password to this user profile. HEHE!

I see your point.  So instead of just a designer, tradesman and container man, we'll need a mechanic aswell to provide the necessary re-purposing parameter, during the design step.  Four separate tradesmen will erect it.  A constant multiplier based on the architects level could linger later on, to determine the output rates.  This would help satisfy the need to rebuild, to stay up with technology.  A new architect migrates in with lv12.  Isn't that fella gonna have ideas in his head? 

However the architect would not need to be present for the factory to operate nominally.  What do you think?  I would give the architects dwarfs more playability.  *shrug*

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Roraborialisforealis]

Reminds me of the game goblin camp, where you are managing a civilization so big that the micromanagement of dwarf fortress would be impossible.

[Neonivek]

mostly imagined

I'm glad I don't have to imagine what a Goblin Lasher is in RL.  I only need to look at my wife.  Ooops.  Knutor scuttles off to add a longer password to this user profile. HEHE!

I see your point.  So instead of just a designer, tradesman and container man, we'll need a mechanic aswell to provide the necessary re-purposing parameter, during the design step.  Four separate tradesmen will erect it.  A constant multiplier based on the architects level could linger later on, to determine the output rates.  This would help satisfy the need to rebuild, to stay up with technology.  A new architect migrates in with lv12.  Isn't that fella gonna have ideas in his head? 

However the architect would not need to be present for the factory to operate nominally.  What do you think?  I would give the architects dwarfs more playability.  *shrug*

Sincerely,
Knutor

So this factory is a modern one? Then it is too modern for the game as it stands and should be left up to modding.

[TBeholder]

and your idea of what a factory is (being a single building that ignores the tools and processes required to make something) is mostly imagined. Factories in real life have to be repurposed to do something else.

There's nothing wrong with buildings being specialized so that if you want it to do anything but one given job, and the only way to change it is to dismantle and use materials to make another building. Mills aren't amazingly versatile either, so what?
A worse parts are that them factories are supposed to churn out a lot of product from a lot of material and rely on a lot of very regularly present workers - i just don't quite see the place of either in DF context, even if the rest was implemented. 
On the other eyestalk, i also don't see a good reason to split production chains anywhere but the intermediate product with more than one use - and in DF, even the corkscrew goes in traps and pumps. Okay, currently Pipe section / Tube isn't, but it probably will be reused and even until then just begs to be modded into lots and lots of things like distillery/filters/alchemy/pneumatic needlespitters/...
So if we split a chain into unequal parts and there's no way to set one job as more time-consuming than the other... multi-worker workshops for "big" processes (maybe merely slowing down if there's not enough) seem to be a fairly good idea - but that's about it.

[knutor]

I'm happy with a simple upgrade to some of the more essential stations, thereby allowing them to produce in bulk.  Ones that come to mind..

Farm, Still, Kitchen, Soaper, Bowyer, to name a few.

I have a grievance with bowyer. I think all ranged weapons should be done in there.  All ammo made there.  Even include blow darts and arrows in whatever material ya wanted.  With the exception of siege ammo.  I'd like to see siege ammo just be rocks, however, ballista are sorta overkill, unless they are used vs flying things.  As my maps really aren't big enough to get the most of a ballistae.

I'd like to see all crafts be made in the craft station.  With decorations being moved to its own station, clumped right along what is currently the jewellers encrust skill..  I'd add a station to identify gemstones prior them being cut up.. A lore-like, library station, to use the scholar traits.  In this identification station, I'd leave room for growth, and increase the chance of better gems being uncovered solely by the level of scholar.  Too many patterns in the veins now exist, takes the fun out of discovery.

Then I'd put the traditional cut gemstone task into a magma only station.

So much I'd change.  But as to the topic, I can only see factories improving my enjoyment of this game.  Whether they are their own building, or an upgrade to an existing building.  Either way, its a boon.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Aachen]

I have a grievance with bowyer. I think all ranged weapons should be done in there.  All ammo made there.  Even include blow darts and arrows in whatever material ya wanted.  With the exception of siege ammo.  I'd like to see siege ammo just be rocks, however, ballista are sorta overkill, unless they are used vs flying things.  As my maps really aren't big enough to get the most of a ballistae.

So, then, you want the blowgun/darts to be allowed to dwarven entities? Given my (admittedly slightly sketchy) understanding of siege engines, isn't a catapult more readily accused of overkill than a ballista? I thought ballistae were focused more as an antipersonnel weapon, where a catapult could be used to damage walls as well as massed formations. At any rate, it isn't tenable to generalize your experience; a person playing on a larger map shouldn't lose out because someone else doesn't have a use for ballistae. Since a lot of the framework for sieges is simply not in place as yet, it is also probably jumping the gun to demand cuts at this stage.

I'd like to see all crafts be made in the craft station.  With decorations being moved to its own station, clumped right along what is currently the jewellers encrust skill..  I'd add a station to identify gemstones prior them being cut up.. A lore-like, library station, to use the scholar traits.  In this identification station, I'd leave room for growth, and increase the chance of better gems being uncovered solely by the level of scholar.  Too many patterns in the veins now exist, takes the fun out of discovery.

What "scholar's traits" are you referring to? And why would a loremaster need to identify gems, but not stone clusters, ores, shrubs, blood barrels or any other specific materials? How does an identifier's skill level effect the quality of work (or is this the "chance of better gems")? Misidentification? Does studding move to the hypothetical Decorator's Shop? Honestly, it would likely require a lot of change to the whole mineral/geologic system to change [small cluster of X gemstone] to [small cluster of ?? gemstone]. And the payout is a very boring "train up your loremaster for extreme diamond party!" mechanic. I personally find it much more interesting to have variety in available rough gems linked to choice of site. I don't understand how there is any more "discovery" involved in your proposal.

Then I'd put the traditional cut gemstone task into a magma only station.

Why?! And bollocks to the player who hasn't magma?

So much I'd change.  But as to the topic, I can only see factories improving my enjoyment of this game.  Whether they are their own building, or an upgrade to an existing building.  Either way, its a boon.

And an anachronism. Perhaps I have such a strong antipathy to the word, more than the proposal. However, if a "factory" is truly a factory, then it is clearly quite beyond the circa-fifteenth-century-era technology constraint. I would be more comfortable with the proposal if the range of output was restricted to items which don't have quality levels.

[RabidAnubis]

Wow.  I left this thread and came back later and there was a whole another page!

By the way, this is the thing I love about Dwarf fortress- People give honest criticism and ideas and aren't assholes about it.  Thanks guys.  Best community ever.

Perhaps another thought.

Maybe you could make craftsdwarves bottle up bins and turn them into trade bins, removing the tracking from all the individual items and just adding all the cost to the bin.

[knutor]

Wow.  I left this thread and came back later and there was a whole another page!

By the way, this is the thing I love about Dwarf fortress- People give honest criticism and ideas and aren't assholes about it.  Thanks guys.  Best community ever.

Perhaps another thought.

Maybe you could make craftsdwarves bottle up bins and turn them into trade bins, removing the tracking from all the individual items and just adding all the cost to the bin.

I'd like it too.  I don't see why it matters what the stuff is, inside there, or what stockpile its in.  Once its in a bin, its preserved.  No need to add that confusing prefix to the bins name, which in the end appears to hide the bin quality from sight.  I've sold lotsa exceptional bins, unknowingly.  Have you?

Solution:  Don't use bins and barrels.  Only use them for factories, like the OP suggested.  It would remove confusing, from early game stockpiles where its annoying not seeing just how many leather hides you have because, that anal dwarf stuffed em all in a hamper, out of sight.  I never know when to build my leather trade, because of bins, hiding the goods from me.  Get rid of them, til stations advance into factories.   

Or postpone the entire container trade, until the Caravan fix arrives.  Dunno.  I really dislike losing exceptional bins, because I can't read them plainly and clearly in the Depot screen.  I have been using v to view them, and then look at the bins price, to determine its quality, but thats too much re-engineering for my simple mind to handle.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Aachen]

Don't trade bins? Sounds like the solution to me. So it adds a few more commands to the trade screen. If you really have a problem trading off bins, that's the trade-off.

I really shudder when I contemplate block-storage without bins. I'd never use 'em again. Construction projects would hinge on mass-dumping (like enough other bloody jobs already do)!

[knutor]

Why shudder at that?  We have unlimited containerless storage.  Go down or build up.  Unless the player's world is prespec'd for a shallow magma pool, I cannot see this causing one goose bump, much less two.  I guess it was a point worth raising prior to this release.  *shrug*  Containerless worlds would be a possible fix.  At least for the interim, until the caravan patch.

Aachen, I just now saw your previous response up in there.  I am sorry I didn't respond earlier, Aachen.  Completely missed it. Bowyers are misrepresented, indeed.  As is the its tradesmen, fletcher.  As far as siege equipment, ya can't have a fortress game without them.  Just to me, the ammo for a ballista is close enough to bowyer to be placed in there, lock stock and barrel.  We don't need a whole workplace for siege engines, they are just machinery, like a windmill.  If they were mobile I would say, different.  As for range, I'm against the two having the same.  An arrow flys true.  A ball of rock?  Not so true.  Splash damage of rock, now that is  different.

ID'ing gems would aid in level randomization.  As things are now, the predictability is rather obvious to the player, as to which level has which gem, after 10% of a level is discovered, what gems might be in the rest of the level, stands out like a sore thumb.  Nothing new would I do. ID'ing, like other crafts would be slow and sloopy at low levels.  Sloopy as in illiterate and unreferenced.  I fail to see the train up as boring, but rather exciting.  This could be our differences in playstyles between you and me, however. 

I'm not interested in racing through a game, so I'd enjoy the level up, and the possible outcomes.  When I have a dozen or so legendary dwarfs strutting my halls, I sorta wanna restart.  As for cutting gemstones requiring magma.  Yes sir.  Gems would be a pinnacle craft, not a sideshow craft, like it is now.  Taking backseat to glassware and fabric.  I think of dwarfs as tinkers and hoarders.  Hoarders of gems.  So, yup.  Bollocks.  As for setting gems, that'd go into the Decorations station and be a simple task, since well, we could buy them out of Depot, or pick them up on the battlefield out of the gums of the dead.  Or even extricate them from already bedazzled setups.  That only requires a hammer.  In a modified melt way, the code of sorts, could include the destruction of precious things.

And your dislike of the term, Factory, is one we both share.  I'm all about just increasing the size of an already built station, as to generating a wholely new eyesore in the already cluttered ingloriously filled sub menus.  b-upgrade to bulk

What did you think of my suggestion to expand the kitchen and other stations that thwart 3x3 travel, as a result of their unspecified, walled edges?  The dwarfs can't pass that barrel in the kitchen, so its layout should be 5x5, not 3x3, to start with.  Any thoughts on that?

Sincerely,
Knutor

edit. spelling error