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[Ogdibus]

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[Max White]

Don't let them notice they have a choice?

How do you think the economy works? You don't think those little pieces of paper are worth anything do you? We only accept them as a reward for our tasks because people insist they have value. We don't see the choice, thus the world goes round.

There are a few better examples, but economics is slightly less likely to end in a flame war.

[Ogdibus]

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[Dsarker]

Freedom is the ability to do what we ought to.

[Max White]

You are getting your alignments mixed up. A man may use what freedom he perceives to have to pillage, rape and slaughter, and I'm going to say that he ought not to do those things.

[Dsarker]

You are getting your alignments mixed up. A man may use what freedom he perceives to have to pillage, rape and slaughter, and I'm going to say that he ought not to do those things.

And I'm saying that isn't true freedom.

[Max White]

He has the choice to do as he likes, and yet he isn't free because he isn't confirming to a moral code?
I think you have this thing back to front. Freedom isn't just intrinsically good you know? Having freedom can lead to very poor choices. I mean fuck, most religions start with that one, be it eating fruit or opening boxes.

[Enzo]

AMERICA

[Max White]

AMERICA

Dang toot'n mudda fucker!

[Ogdibus]

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[Dsarker]

Freedom is the ability to do what we ought to.

I think I just got what you mean.  Are you reffering to wellness, rather than moral dogma?

Not sure what you mean by wellness there. An educated conscience is how you learn what is right.

[Max White]

I think we have a leap in logic going on here. You see 'doing what you ought to' is generally seen as a good thing, right? And freedom is a good thing, right? Well the second is clearly debatable, but let's totally skip that step and pretend that it is.
That doesn't mean that one thing is the other just because they might share a property.

I don't want to pay my bills and would be happy if I were free not to. Financial freedom would entitle no such obligation, yet I'm still meant to pay rent. Sometimes doing the right thing is what you want to do, but that requires you to be a very moral person, and being a moral person is not a prerequisite of being free.

[Dsarker]

I think we have a leap in logic going on here. You see 'doing what you ought to' is generally seen as a good thing, right? And freedom is a good thing, right? Well the second is clearly debatable, but let's totally skip that step and pretend that it is.
That doesn't mean that one thing is the other just because they might share a property.

I don't want to pay my bills and would be happy if I were free not to. Financial freedom would entitle no such obligation, yet I'm still meant to pay rent. Sometimes doing the right thing is what you want to do, but that requires you to be a very moral person, and being a moral person is not a prerequisite of being free.

No, no, no. You've missed the point entirely.

To take your example, would you be free if the law forbade you from paying your bills?

[Max White]

No, I would not be free to not pay my bills. Taking out the double negative, I must pay my bills. That isn't freedom, I have al obligation I d not wish to abide to, but do anyway else others will impose a penalty on me, a penalty I wish to avoid even more, thus I choose the lesser of two evils, but that is hardly freedom, as neither are appealing options.

[LordBucket]

Absolute individual freedom would be the ability to make anyone do whatever you would will them to do.
However, it is not possible for two people to have Absolute freedom.

There are models which allow for the possibility. Examples:

1) It happens that the choices individuals wish to make are acceptable to the others they wish to act upon. You would not think of it as violating free will to kiss a girl who really wanted you to kiss her.

2) Consciousness as a singular entity. If you kind of want to go out drinking, but you kind of want to go to sleep early, whichever way you decide, one of those desires is likely to be unfulfilled. But you're unlikely to accuse yourself of violating your free will because you perceive each of these conflicting desires as being part of a single mind.

3) Multiple, nondiscrete overlapping layers of consciousness. To give a metaphor, Tybalt can kill Mercutio and this does not interfere with Mercutio's free will because Mercutio is a stage role being played by an actor, and the actor is a conscious being who is choosing to play Mercutio. Nobody accuses the actor playing Tybalt of violating the free will of the actor playing Mercutio. They both chose to play the roles. And you are a conscious being inhabiting a physical body because you chose to.