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Poll

which would u like

blacksmiths can learn how to make foriegn by copying them
- 3 (37.5%)
don't like option 1
- 0 (0%)
strange mods make new strange weapons.
- 4 (50%)
don't like option 1
- 1 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 8


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Author Topic: blacksmithes should learn  (Read 1934 times)

Starver

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2011, 07:15:05 pm »

Hoping I haven't missed something interesting inbetween the philosophical discussion, here's my take:

Your civilisation has its own weapons, and (as we know) other holes in its knowledge, like sometimes no High Boots.  But 'foreign' weapons and clothing come your fortress's way via trade.  If your respective craftsdwarf gets his or her hands on these items, then the secret of their construction becomes (at least partially) theirs and they can start considering making them.

"Getting their hands on them" could include personally belonging to them (including assigned in uniform) and, if/when damage levels are implemented to all items with a repair system in tow, during the repair process.

Obviously it wouldn't be an instant success.  Perhaps it starts off some low multiple, like 10%, to adjust the quality level downwards from whatever would have been achieved for creating/repairing something from the more familiar pantheon of items.  Attempts to make/repair that item thus results in low-quality tat even from a master of the trade, initially.

If the adjusted quality is below a certain minimum threshold, you would get either junk (non-biological equivalent to vermin remains, perhaps suitable for Melting, if a metal material) or nothing at all might end up being created in the process.  Or a pre-damaged item, if lower than "base quality" but still above "destroyed" or "rubbish" limits.  (Attempts can be made to repair pre-damaged items, but that still carries the risk of destroying it while trying to fix it.)

Each involvement (or each non-failing engagement?) with the non-native item increases the multiple until eventually normalised (or nearly so, could be made asymptotic to 100%, for always that little bit of uncertainty) with native item creation for the skill-level already gained.  Perhaps when the learning process adds to the familiarity, it should mean a reduced increase on the craft's own XP gain from what a native item would give.  (Or fully zero additional experience, or else even randomly varying from zero to actually a little more gain than usual, due to the challenge.  I'll leave that to be an aspect of fine-tuning of the concept, or just to be ignored altogether in any hypothetical implementation...)


The reasoning behind the "any interaction" stipulation is that getting a heft on a weapon (as per the OP) or actually wearing a bit of unfamiliar armour should convey some experience.  Although I do feel that assignment via uniform might be considered somewhat "danger room"-style exploity (especially if, in an actual danger-room, appreciation for a particular foreign armour item is built up alongside the usual skill-building you get, at the same speed), so maybe usage alone can only drag it up to (say) 50% proficiency in understanding the item, compared with a 100% limit on attempts to create and... repair?  Speculatively place that at a 75% ceiling, but that's another matter that could be be adjusted (or ignored) accordingly.

Should this system encounter unusual items whose interactions are nominally in display, e.g. a stone fountain (variation on a statue), or coming across a cage made of bones, then observing in-situ would be the prime learning method, behind the ubiquitous method of creation, with sitting in stockpile, or otherwise unconstructed giving the lesser degree of familiarity.  (Haulage?  Same as 'hefting' the object, I'd say, but maybe nothing, to avoid stockpile-restacking exploits.)

Novel items with other uses (e.g., say, something like a chaise longue... in context, maybe an elvish bit of furniture that can be used as both throne/chair and bed) you gain experience with by the given interactions (and perhaps 50% max experience allowed by sitting on it, and 50% max experience allowed by sleeping on it, but added together).  Note that the fountains or chaise longues ideas are just illustrative plucked out of the air and not intended to be additional ideas.  (Although... on second thoughts, procedurally generated strangenesses of this kind might well be something worth suggesting...:) )


Anyhow... The process is "Oooh, so you say this is called a 'scimitar'?  Well, I suppose I could make a copy...", goes through a bit of "How do they get the curve just right?" and "Well, I can try to file the nicks out, but I'm not sure I can reforge that edge correctly, just yet" until eventually competence is gained and you're churning out home-grown *Dwarven scimitar*s or better, like they were your bread-and-butter short swords like your mammy used to forge...

We already have Secrets of various other kinds coming up, I think the damage-and-repair thing is, the supply is already there, the skill-base is there (just needs conditional adjustment, according to some hidden-or-otherwise additional skill value, or just tied directly to the knowledge of the Secret, itself, however that's supposed to work for the upcoming stuff) and there's plenty of opportunity to waste raw materials on each utter failure to replicate (to balance the potential for spamming the learning process and selling all the low-quality failures) or distruction of the prized toy in a botched repair attempt (again, so you don't just hand around a damaged exotic weapon to all your smiths and spam them all into familiarity... should be tuned so that a single practitioner has a good chance of creeping the learning curve up but multiple inexperienced hands would more likely destroy it).

And if teacher/student skills get used to enable craftsdwarfs to pass on knowledge, then (with the suitably low multiple also being involved, maybe even reduced further due to awkwardness of communication) the skill might well be passed from craftsdwarf to apprenticedwarf alongside general skills.


Anyway, that's probably putting more flesh on the bones than I should be, while still leaving it look like a zombie that's been wandering through a briar-patch.  TL;DR; treat foreign weapon construction as Secrets, and "blacksmithes[sic] should learn", as per the subject is the progression from that.  But don't just restrict it to weapons, or indeed just items that blacksmiths of all flavours can make, but extend across the range.

(Perhaps it could even also apply to any re-introduced Dungeon Master, so that (somehow) working with a creature not even an Exotic-Pet, but brought along (tamed) by the elves, let's him do his own tracking and training of that species (and maybe closely related ones), regardless of the lack of any PET-style tag.  But I wouldn't like to suggest how the failures to succeed, from the percentage-multiple factor, might represent themselves when dealing with Giant Desert Scorpions or whatever. :) )
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Loud Whispers

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2011, 07:17:31 pm »

But then we could end up in situations where the only visitors are really !!FUN!! fauna, dwarves learn no new weapons/armours, and get steam rolled.

Clearly a better system is needed.

Starver

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2011, 07:36:17 pm »

Unless we go the whole hog with the Procedurally Generated Weapons (e.g. attach a sword-style hilt to an axe-type blade via a flail-type chain to get... something that needs a lot of training to use well and without backfire, honestly, but it'd be dwarfy!), I can't see a dwarf learning about anything he hasn't actually seen (and, ideally, handled).

Maybe seeing !!FUN!! beasts can spark a glimmer of knowledge for either a weapon inspired by the form of a particular !!FUN!!-beast's appendage/limb or a weapon inspired by thoughts on how to damage said !!FUN!!-beast.  Perhaps justifiable by the shock of seeing said beast (with accompanying danger of getting them in a position to do so, hopefully temporarily and non-fatally) triggering an artistic bent.  Or perhaps reaches out, sort of psychically/resonating-morphically to the style of foreign weapons habitually carried by a civ that has managed to be ruled by a related !!FUN!!-beast.

Justifications can be adjusted and developed accordingly, and fine-tuned to be meaningful once the precise implementation method has been adopted by T1 (should he ever, of course).  But isolationist dwarfs don't deserve to expand their knowledge, in a vacuum.  (Says I, a habitual wall-them-in fortress builder, albeit that I open my drawbridges/whatever up for immigrants and caravans, but I largely don't suffer contact with any more enemies than I strictly need to, under my currently favoured design philosophy.)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2011, 07:37:48 pm »

strange moods making random weapons sounds like a nice idea!

Starver

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2011, 07:49:08 pm »

There's threads about these random-component weapons out there (not necessarily based on mood, but moods do bring out oddly-materialled objects, so maybe that's the in-road to peculiarly componented objects as well), but I'm embarrassed to say that I have no idea whether you have or haven't been involved in them, so am probably telling you about something you already know.

If not, perhaps seek them out with whatever Google-Fu you can apply to the forum's search routine.  Or maybe pester Footkerchief for his expertise in the matter (or direct knowledge of what I speak, perhaps! :) )...
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jaxler

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2011, 02:57:03 pm »

ok so what i want to know is would u want all my ideas (not including the whip thing) the blacksmiths learn hwot o make weapons through trail and error and strange moods make weird new odd weapons.
 i think ill make a poll.
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I've decided to say "fuck it" and will just implode my fort.

“Ok, Neo ChosenUrist, before you is two levers. Pull the Kimberlite lever -- you wakeup in a random bed and have whatever thoughts you want to think. You pull the Bauxite lever -- you stay in the caverns and I show you how deep the adamantine hole goes.” - psalms

jaxler

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2011, 02:59:44 pm »

the polls have opened
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I've decided to say "fuck it" and will just implode my fort.

“Ok, Neo ChosenUrist, before you is two levers. Pull the Kimberlite lever -- you wakeup in a random bed and have whatever thoughts you want to think. You pull the Bauxite lever -- you stay in the caverns and I show you how deep the adamantine hole goes.” - psalms

Starver

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2011, 03:55:30 pm »

the polls have opened

Eh?

Sorry, I don't even understand some of the vote.  However, I like the principle of both described options (as inadvertently already covered, in my own posts), so is that the Opt1+Opt3 answer?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2011, 04:38:44 pm »

I voted for procedurally generated weapons made from strange moods...

This is IronWine the Assault of Trees.

It's hilt is made from adamantine. It menaces with spikes of wtf. Above the hilt is a large adamantine axe blade, with a large spiked ball on the end.

Swords are adorned across the spiked ball. There is a crossbow in the handguard.

jaxler

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2011, 06:31:43 pm »

I voted for procedurally generated weapons made from strange moods...

This is IronWine the Assault of Trees.

It's hilt is made from adamantine. It menaces with spikes of wtf. Above the hilt is a large adamantine axe blade, with a large spiked ball on the end.

Swords are adorned across the spiked ball. There is a crossbow in the handguard.
i like that

and 2/3 of people like making foriegn weapons
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I've decided to say "fuck it" and will just implode my fort.

“Ok, Neo ChosenUrist, before you is two levers. Pull the Kimberlite lever -- you wakeup in a random bed and have whatever thoughts you want to think. You pull the Bauxite lever -- you stay in the caverns and I show you how deep the adamantine hole goes.” - psalms

jaxler

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2011, 06:34:55 pm »

i reset poll due to hole in my logic and i saw that voting 2 times wasnt effective seeing how the option to vote for 2 options was listed as a poll option. so revote
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I've decided to say "fuck it" and will just implode my fort.

“Ok, Neo ChosenUrist, before you is two levers. Pull the Kimberlite lever -- you wakeup in a random bed and have whatever thoughts you want to think. You pull the Bauxite lever -- you stay in the caverns and I show you how deep the adamantine hole goes.” - psalms

Starver

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Re: blacksmithes should learn
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2011, 07:05:04 pm »

Hmm.  I lost the option I thought I should go for, and the duplication wasn't corrected.

Never mind, I still like the base idea of a trial-and-error attempt to recreate something newly encountered AND that moods should continue to throw up various strangenesses.  Whether this is the same idea, or not, I like both.
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