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Author Topic: Accurate, orderly dating system  (Read 10662 times)

RedKing

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2011, 01:59:35 pm »

Besides, going to a bloodless, culture-less mathematically perfect calendar sounds like something out a Orwellian dystopia.
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It would be impossible for it to be cultureless, as it would be a result of our culture. That's like saying going from old-timey feet, thumbs and hugs to metric was a "bloodless, culture-less" and Orwellian move.
And now you understand why the metric system is a tool of the Devil.  :P

Seriously though...a date like "10 Sixthmonth" is either incredibly lazy or it comes off feeling like "Oldthink month 'June' is doubleplus ungood crimethink."

I guess it boils down to the fact that calendrical systems are arbitrary human divisions of astronomical time anyways...why should any one system be more "correct" than another? Especially when the astronomical orbits they're based on are not static over time. (i.e. the length of a lunar month is changing ever so slightly, as is the solar day, and the solar year. Even star-based calendars like the Egyptian Sothic calendar cycle changes over time, introducing errors.
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Dsarker

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2011, 02:02:55 pm »

Besides, going to a bloodless, culture-less mathematically perfect calendar sounds like something out a Orwellian dystopia.
PERFECTION INCARNATE
It would be impossible for it to be cultureless, as it would be a result of our culture. That's like saying going from old-timey feet, thumbs and hugs to metric was a "bloodless, culture-less" and Orwellian move.
And now you understand why the metric system is a tool of the Devil.  :P

Seriously though...a date like "10 Sixthmonth" is either incredibly lazy or it comes off feeling like "Oldthink month 'June' is doubleplus ungood crimethink."

I guess it boils down to the fact that calendrical systems are arbitrary human divisions of astronomical time anyways...why should any one system be more "correct" than another? Especially when the astronomical orbits they're based on are not static over time. (i.e. the length of a lunar month is changing ever so slightly, as is the solar day, and the solar year. Even star-based calendars like the Egyptian Sothic calendar cycle changes over time, introducing errors.

But it wouldn't be 10 Sixthmonth. It would be 10th of June
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scriver

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2011, 02:03:48 pm »

...Because measuring distance in hugs did not all make Swedes look ridiculous... ;D
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Virex

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2011, 02:04:53 pm »

I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WOULD GIVE ME THE ULTIMATE METHOD TO FIND A SOULMATE !!!
We're still trying to figure out how to ask her for her birthday without imposing arbitrary cultural assumptions upon her.
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Necro910

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2011, 02:07:28 pm »

Seriously though...a date like "10 Sixthmonth" is either incredibly lazy or it comes off feeling like "Oldthink month 'June' is doubleplus ungood crimethink."
Whenever is hear Newspeak, I chuckle and watch people's heads tilt  :P

Flying Dice

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2011, 02:35:44 pm »

Why not a "Racial Suicide Calendar" which resets to year zero every time a genocide is commited, war is started, nuclear/chemical/biological superweapon is used, etc.? That would be perfect for the world, methinks; a larger scale version of "X Days since our last accident!" signs at factories and power plants, for the benefit of any xenos excavating ruins a few thousand years from now, to display exactly how much/little (pssh, yeah right) we tended towards self-destruction.
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Necro910

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2011, 02:38:40 pm »

Why not a "Racial Suicide Calendar" which resets to year zero every time a genocide is commited, war is started, nuclear/chemical/biological superweapon is used, etc.? That would be perfect for the world, methinks; a larger scale version of "X Days since our last accident!" signs at factories and power plants, for the benefit of any xenos excavating ruins a few thousand years from now, to display exactly how much/little (pssh, yeah right) we tended towards self-destruction.
The best part is that we would never have to update it!  :P

Starver

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2011, 03:05:12 pm »

Our problem: usual spread is four seasons over twelve months. Seasons are not months 1-3,4-6,7-9,10-12. [...]

Year will start in what is now December, which will be renamed January. New Year will be on January 1st, Christmas will be on January 25th, and so on.

Sorry, but if you want to make seasons match months, you need to start with "January 1st" on[1] what is currently December 21st.

In fact, weren't various historical (and non-Western contemporary?) calendars originally based upon a "start at the Spring equinox", or another of its sibling quarter-points?

Anyway, the way to go is pick a given solstice/equinox (or its diametrically opposed one, for those in the other hemisphere from your own reference), these four instances in time being the least arbitrary points.  Use that as the start of the year, or at least so that the midnight-to-midnight cycle[2] containing that instance is the "day of the new year" at whatever Prime Meridian you're choosing and having the rest of the world (that cares to follow the system) adjust according to their time-zone (so may have that moment in the day before or after, depending on how it all happens).

Months.  Based (at least originally, and now only roughly) on the cycles of the moon.  A 27/28-ish day cycle (according to whether you measure absolute or adjust for Earth's rotation).  You could take the point the moon is at at the start-of-year moment and choose that to be your month-boundary for the remainder of the year.  Again, depending on how you're measuring it, you'd end up with either 12 full months and a thirteenth 'spare' month at the end of the year or 13 full months and a smaller 'spare' one in 14th position.  Depending on which your triskaidekaphobia might feel most comfortable with.  This spare month would take up the leap-year slack, as well.

The spare-month would be useful as a holiday season, perhaps on top of the (not on month-transitions) other three 'quarter-points'.  Easter might need some minor renegotiation and re-assessment, for those that don't maintain the current Gregorian/Julian calendar versions[3] despite the change in the civil calendar, but existing days such as December 25th would map decently well to a particular day in the new calendar in the first year in the new system which wouldn't be noticeably incorrect between the systems on any future year.  New Year's Eve would be the worst affected, except that it's the last day of the year, regardless of Leap Year and other enforced astronomical variation.  (Anything that happens to sit on such a date initially adopted as that day may end up being the new Feb 29th and not reappear every year, or else find another day buffering between it and the new year...  If we don't start the new system until a year that is not going to be a "Leap Year" example, only new events (births, etc) get caught out.  On the other hand, actively starting on one that is means that people born on 29/Feb/xxxx under the existing system get a day that they now get every year!.

Anyway, now we have months re-tied to the moon (and, if we use the start-of-year state of the moon as the month-boundary point in the phase, might call each year a "New Moon Year" or a "Full Moon Year"), we can rejig the weeks so that the first of every month is the same day of the week, and the month-end has the same flexibility for week-length as year-end has for month-length.  We might as well stick with seven days a week, as it would work well, although I can see four-days-a-week working.  Or (if you know you're going to have a partial week anyway) eight.


It'll all make the successor to Zeller's Algorithm a lot easier to work out, of course.  In a still seven-day-week system, you'd have: "What day is <Firstmonth> the 7th, in the New Year 41" "<SeventhDay>!"  "Correct.  What day is <Thirdmonth> the 13th, in the New Year 39" "<SixthDay>!"  "Correct.  What day is "<Ninethmonth> the 24th in the..." "<ThirdDay!>" "...New Year of...   Correct.  What day is..."


(All this give or take some probably forgotten details, anyway.)

[1] Or within a day of, given the vagaries of celestial mechanics and where your time-zone lies around the Earth.

[2] Assuming you don't want to change to dawn-to-dawn or midday-to-midday, but being that we're not nocturnal it still is best to keep the day-change based around midnight, rather than 6AM/PM (local time, disregarding DST or other irregularities to the local clock.

[3] In reality, it'd still follow roughly the same back-and-forth cycle, except insofar as the G/J calender versions (or, rather, ones based upon astronomical instances hitting a different day in the East than in the West) currently vary.

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Starver

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2011, 03:10:48 pm »

Probably the fact that The Islamic claendar doesnt match the Gregorain one... nor does the Jewish, or IIRC the Chinese/eastern. Dont get me started on Julian dates...
IIRC, there's a good bit in 'Wheelers' (SF[1] book by Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart where there's an asteroid-living monk who has thoughts about the mechanism for working out when his holy days are, given that he not only doesn't live in the same time-zone as the religion's origin, but doesn't even have the same 24-hour cycle.

Now, who did I lend that book to?  I am acutely aware that I can't remember enough details about that bit.  (Although it's only 'flavour' to the universe, and nothing to do with the major plot. :) )



[1] With deliberate consistency with the very real possibilities of xenobiology.
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Andrew425

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2011, 03:12:26 pm »

Why would you start the new year when the world is dying?

Why not start it during its symbolic rebirth? (Spring)
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Starver

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2011, 03:27:39 pm »

Why would you start the new year when the world is dying?

Why not start it during its symbolic rebirth? (Spring)

If that's a response to me, December 21st is (give or take a day) that point.  Days get longer.  It is the first day of winter (by some conventions[1], just like "Midsummer's Day" is the first day of summer, and the point that days start get shorter again) but actually less depressing than autumn, which starts off at the point the daylight hours are effectively shortening the most and ends at the worst point.

The fact that (at least here in the UK) the inertia of climate means that we seem to get more snow in Jan/Feb than in the technically more day-lacking Nov/Dec is a peculiarity.  And of course plants do their own thing, but you can't get a definite and yet non-arbitrary day is anywhere as significant as far as the biological year goes.


[1] There are other conventions.  Ones that have Summer exactly straddle June 21st/22nd (and the other seasons similar across their own equinoxes/solstice) are the most favoured alternative, in my experience, but that seems to me more a lexical argument than a practical one.
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Akroma

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2011, 03:28:56 pm »

why can't we just go with granite, slate, felsite etc ?
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Dsarker

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2011, 03:29:16 pm »

Why would you start the new year when the world is dying?

Why not start it during its symbolic rebirth? (Spring)
Ah, yes. New Year will be on the first of what is now September.
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RedKing

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2011, 03:30:49 pm »

Why not a "Racial Suicide Calendar" which resets to year zero every time a genocide is commited, war is started, nuclear/chemical/biological superweapon is used, etc.? That would be perfect for the world, methinks; a larger scale version of "X Days since our last accident!" signs at factories and power plants, for the benefit of any xenos excavating ruins a few thousand years from now, to display exactly how much/little (pssh, yeah right) we tended towards self-destruction.

History books would be problematic. "And the 57th Congolese Civil War was a long one, lasting from 0 to 0."

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Dsarker

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Re: Accurate, orderly dating system
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2011, 03:33:53 pm »

Why not a "Racial Suicide Calendar" which resets to year zero every time a genocide is commited, war is started, nuclear/chemical/biological superweapon is used, etc.? That would be perfect for the world, methinks; a larger scale version of "X Days since our last accident!" signs at factories and power plants, for the benefit of any xenos excavating ruins a few thousand years from now, to display exactly how much/little (pssh, yeah right) we tended towards self-destruction.

History books would be problematic. "And the 57th Congolese Civil War was a long one, lasting from 0 to 0."

Ah, idea. We have BC and AD (or if you prefer, BCE and CE). Let's have an abbreviation for each major incident (say the Holocaust or any or genocidal activity)
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"There are times, Sember, when I could believe your mother had a secret lover. Looking at you makes me wonder if it was one of my goats."
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