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Author Topic: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things  (Read 1577 times)

Silverionmox

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2011, 07:13:39 am »

It seems that there would also need to be a fog of war, if we track info like that. After all, you never know whether a missing dwarf is walking around somewhere unless someone is seeing the space. Trees growing, animals hunting and leaving bones, webs by cave spiders etc.

In addition, there's no need for people to have the missing status if you have willingly sealed them away (oubliettes) or they did so themselves (hermits), avoiding all contact except food delivery. Also, people travelling like merchants, diplomats and explorers aren't missing, they're just doing their job.
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antymattar

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2011, 12:25:38 pm »

Again, they dont go missing if they are away for even a year. It would be great to see cases where the dwarves take a nap in the caverns and go missing but that is not really the case here.

Ghills

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2011, 06:04:07 pm »

I don't think the multi-group suggestion is a good one. It seems like it wouldn't add much fun to the game while being irritating to implement and use.  'Missing' dwarfs who wander around and do things could completely mess up FPS and throw off the ability to control labor assignments (and keep calculating their 'missing' status).

If 'missing' dwarves still keep their old labor assignments, but can't be seen, then what happens when they start getting moody and grab an out-of-the-way workshop? Or when they decide to take a job?  Hopefully they'll be spotted soon, but especially in large forts there's a lot of out of the way corners.  And FPS is a huge problem already, we don't need to add more random, uncontrollable ways to sink it.

A better way would be to simply reset a timer every time a dwarf sees another dwarf.  C'mon, most forts never get above 100 people, you think the dwarfs don't know everything about everybody?  These are tiny, tiny villages, not large cities. It's uncommon for people in really small places to go missing and not be dead/out-of-the-area.

What really would be fun is if this gets tied into caravans - say a caravan is expected but doesn't show up. It gets declared 'missing' after a while. That can have all kinds of fun diplomatic implications.  Or maybe it's a fort's caravan that some other places declares missing (or maybe a fort could declare its own caravans missing after a certain period).    It requires some actual diplomacy, but I think it could be a great use of 'missing' dwarfs without seriously detracting from the player's ability to control FPS, labor, etc, which are already a huge pain and detract from the game.
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antymattar

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2011, 06:35:15 pm »

I think you just answered your own argument.  :P

Silverionmox

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2011, 06:59:52 pm »

What will the other dwarves do when someone is missing? Engrave a slab? Mount a search party? Set a bounty? Will deserted spouses tantrum? Will they send out the children to look in and behind every barrel in the fortress?
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antymattar

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2011, 03:36:16 am »

I think thats for a different topic but since we are on it it might be interesting to have search parties. I think you should be able to make slabs/memorials only once you actually find the dwarf/body or meet the ghost.a

ticattack

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2011, 06:27:45 am »

Remember that a search party would not be like what would happen today. There's not so many goblin ambushes lurking for groups of civilians in a fair portion of the modern world. Search parties could be an order for a militia squad. If the game remembered what map tile / biome the dwarf / creature was last seen in, there could be an order like kill - Search, select searchee, squad goes a-wanderin' in that area, staying near each other in case some nastie got the missing fellow and comes back for more.

As for slabs, unless the ghost rises up, or you find/are attacked by the corpse, perhaps there's a time limit, after which the fellow can be declared dead? A few years would not be unreasonable - whether he's actually dead or not, doesn't really matter.

Going off on a tangent, the notion of bounties intrigues me. If someone is killed / eaten / kidnapped, they're missing. What would make a dwarf run away from the fortress? The vampire stuff brings in witnesses and the like. Imagine a murder is performed, but not witnessed. Eventually, a body is found - stabbed with an short sword, says the medical dwarves. A few days later, one of the fort's three short sword owners sneaks away, taking food, booze and some coins / jewellery with her. If the player or the victim's loved ones could put up a bounty for the capture. Eventually, this might bring in adventurers who accept the offer of gold or reputation for hunting down bandits and criminals. It'd be kind of cool having a fort, "retiring" it and coming back later as an adventurer to help them out.

Back on topic:
I don't think the multi-group suggestion is a good one. It seems like it wouldn't add much fun to the game while being irritating to implement and use.  'Missing' dwarfs who wander around and do things could completely mess up FPS and throw off the ability to control labor assignments (and keep calculating their 'missing' status).

If 'missing' dwarves still keep their old labor assignments, but can't be seen, then what happens when they start getting moody and grab an out-of-the-way workshop? Or when they decide to take a job?  Hopefully they'll be spotted soon, but especially in large forts there's a lot of out of the way corners.  And FPS is a huge problem already, we don't need to add more random, uncontrollable ways to sink it.

A better way would be to simply reset a timer every time a dwarf sees another dwarf.  C'mon, most forts never get above 100 people, you think the dwarfs don't know everything about everybody?  These are tiny, tiny villages, not large cities. It's uncommon for people in really small places to go missing and not be dead/out-of-the-area.
A valid concern, sure, but I can't see how the removal of multiple groups fixes it.

To clarify, you mean a global timer, or one per dwarf? If the former, that would basically dissolve the whole concept. If the latter, I don't understand how this is different from what has been suggested already. A single dwarf can grab a workshop as well as six can.

As for "irritating to use", as I suggested it, there's nothing to use - if multiple dwarves go missing, it happens, and the only away it affects the player is if one wanders back in (telling you where the others are), or if they stay away long enough to become a different group within the civilisation, in which case they really don't affect you any more, and have't for some time. I may be missing something, but that particular objection doesn't seem to hold water.
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antymattar

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2011, 06:40:26 am »

The part about a dwarf reporting other dwarves locations MIGHT be a good touch but unless dwarves go missing if they are running away from every plump  helmet in the caverns, I dont see it being too necessarily. Also, the part about small villages. You are absolutely right guys. Thats why people would be so distressed if someone goes missing. Because you normally dont expect it.

peskyninja

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2011, 10:42:43 am »

What if missing dwarfs were invisible?
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i2amroy

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2011, 10:52:24 am »

What if missing dwarfs were invisible?
It would work in a sense, but then we run into the rather serious problem of "Oh great, my mason just went missing since he walled himself into one of the random spaces in this 200x200 labyrinth I just constructed. Guess I need to deconstruct the whole thing and loose 4 years of work to find him." If you were going to go that route I would suggest that you instead place a modifier on them similar to what happens if they are injured or laying down.
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peskyninja

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2011, 02:17:20 pm »

Something that would be very nice is  that Dwarfs could go in those unexplored areas in the caves and do not reveal them (only when they're alone).
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astaldaran

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2011, 07:01:44 pm »

there are a lot of really good ideas here...but someone mentioned that one concern is who is the player..I honestly think this is a major concern that needs addressed not just for things like this but also for economy etc. I think we should be the leader of the fort and we can even be challenged by other nobles...but I've made posts before on that.
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antymattar

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2011, 03:09:21 am »

What if missing dwarfs were invisible?
It would work in a sense, but then we run into the rather serious problem of "Oh great, my mason just went missing since he walled himself into one of the random spaces in this 200x200 labyrinth I just constructed. Guess I need to deconstruct the whole thing and loose 4 years of work to find him." If you were going to go that route I would suggest that you instead place a modifier on them similar to what happens if they are injured or laying down.
This again? Just read the devlogs please.

What if missing dwarfs were invisible?
Thats what Ive been trying to say all along!!!

peskyninja

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2011, 08:56:16 am »

LOL, sorry somehow I missed the First post.
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RabidAnubis

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Re: Dwarves go missing if unconcious Edit: Now with a few new things
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2011, 08:27:42 pm »

I think perhaps the timer being reset it should go from 100-0, going down quicker for some then others.

When a dwarf is seen by another dwarf (Only if they are acquaintances or have a reason to notice, so if they don't know each-other it doesn't matter), it goes up 5.  After a period of time, it goes down 1.  But, if a dwarf keeps on seeing the same dwarves over and over (Excluding nobles) then what would happen is that the increase would be lowered until it reaches 0 (So a group of dwarves could go missing.)  This would also make nobles less useless as they would be the only people who could reset the increase amount..... 

If the number is below 50, the dwarf is missing.  If it is below 10, the dwarf is presumed dead.

Perhaps checkpoints in job areas would keep a log for a +100 bonus. 

I think I just explained that horridly.
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