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Author Topic: Argument for horizontal fortresses  (Read 9118 times)

DrKillPatient

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2011, 08:14:37 am »

It could just hack their wings off, so you get a flightless breeding eagle.
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DrKillPatient

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2011, 08:21:58 am »

Hm... I recently figured out how to mod in gnus for savanna biomes (A great bearded antelope. Beware its libre software!), perhaps I should put a Rainbow Dash creature in "joyous wilds" areas.
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"Frankly, if you're hanging out with people who tell you to use v.begin() instead of &v[0], you need to rethink your social circle."
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MadocComadrin

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2011, 08:27:07 am »

Hmm, I came into this thread thinking that if I argued well enough, someone would give me a horizontal fortress! I am disappoint! D:
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mrbigmuscles

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2011, 08:34:34 am »

loud whispers, connull, starvers - your designs sound really interesting. would you post saves or throw maps up on the archive?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2011, 08:48:43 am »

Maybe once my main save's been finished I'll post the pics ;P
I've got plans for a large above ground dome protruding with guard towers (which will also function as early scaffholding).
Plus, digging out a large underground nature reserve, where I'm going to put my captured savage beasties and begin the HUNT!!!
[The animals won't be able to see anything trululululu]
Might even flood it a bit and breach the caverns to grow forests... Though I really don't want to do that ;_;

**2nd Idea, might make a world, mod it and build a fortress entirely out of adamantine O__O__O__O

Come to think of it, building a fortress entirely out of adamantine would be problematic.
Food stores... Finding stone.... Trees e.t.c.
Dirt would suddenly become very valuable o-o

*Edit, fixed typo, said I was building a large doom lol

Starver

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2011, 09:00:29 am »

loud whispers, connull, starvers - your designs sound really interesting. would you post saves or throw maps up on the archive?
Keep meaning to, never get around to it (play at home, generally forumise at work).  Maybe I shall make an extra-special effort to do so in the near future.  For which I'll need to reinvestigate the whole "save yer fortresses 'ere!" site, given it's yonks since I last even considered it and got not quite so far as to get myself a login... :)

*Edit, fixed typo, said I was building a large doom lol
And why not?  I'd go with either. :)

(I must admit that I'm into domes in Minecraft.  Great big glass ones above and across the top of mohole workings, generally, although I haven't even started the 100-block diameter one in the latest one.  I'll stick with huge grids in DF, though, because they're far more aesthetically satisfying to me, in this medium. :D )
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2011, 09:40:27 am »

I just realised, what with my testing on Goblin philosophies and all, I could build a goblin village in my underground nature reserve.......

Nameless Archon

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2011, 01:58:25 pm »

Aren't horizontal fortresses more..... nice to look at?
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I been building vertically since I entered the game and I just realised that even after I brushed up the asethetics, the lack of.... well, dwarves movement other than in the staircases get kinda boring. Following a dwarf movement vertically literally gives one a headache.
Why? You have hotkeys set up for the important floors, right?
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C0NNULL

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2011, 02:06:24 pm »

For mrbigmuscles: A picture of the apartment level. If I narrowed the main E/W corridor to 2 tiles, I could see the southern wall, but I prefer a 3 tile hall, so I suffer the agony of not seeing the wall. I'm totally fine with it. *tic* (J/K. Function over form, all day, every day.) It is very reminiscent of a wiki design, so I get zero points for originality. (Though, given the want for 3x2 rooms, and I hear that greater than 5 rooms on a side in a 1x hall may cause traffic, how much original can you make, exactly?)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is no siege. You see it in the pic, but I killed it then I went to work. Then I came back and posted this. (I almost posted and came home to the siege, but you could wait. The spilling of blood took it's right and proper precedence. We hope this was of no inconvenience to you.) This is the same fort that I had my first Bronze Colossus in. [Different thread. Should pro'ly put shameless plug here. Maybe later.] We are still alive. Probably because everyone has a frakking nice room. *grins*
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Poindexterity

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2011, 02:06:56 pm »

i try and go half and half.
I put all the major bedrooms, workshop areas, storage, and whatnot all on about 5 lvls.
best of both worlds.
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Tevish Szat

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2011, 02:15:15 pm »

I'm a long-term builder of vertical fortresses, not for efficient pathing (though that is a plus), but for standardization of "levels" -- there's a farming level, a housing level, a crafts level, a stockpile level, and it all looks well and good.

But, there;s something just glorious about Sprawl that I think I could be missing.  I mean, the "living quarters" floor can take up most of a Z with dining rooms, food stockpiles, and housing but it still isn't the same as watching a dwarf walk to work.  Still, unless I went with an above-ground fort I don't think i could do totally 1 z-level... I despise building anything but farms/tree farms in soil -- real dwarves live in stone!  perhaps with an irrigation scheme I could have the best of both worlds, yes?
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Makbeth

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2011, 04:03:31 pm »

I've found a fortress plan effective enough to follow for several games now:  World has one cavern layer.  Dig a small surface den in whatever defensible location is closest to the wagon, and dig an exploratory shaft all the way down to the magma sea.  If I hit SMR, tunnel around until I find magma.  If I missed the cavern find that too.  Fort is built between cavern and magma sea.

Basement level:  foundry floor is the ceiling of a suitably large chamber in the magma sea (I channel down from the layer above the foundry to avoid warm rock cancellations) that I channel into for forge, furnace, kiln, and smelter access.  Sometimes the prison is on this level too.  Also, "retirement homes" for nobles are built one level farther down, or on this level, whichever allows them to be horizontally adjacent to magma.  5x5 rough-hewn rooms with a door and a bed; not luxury accommodations, but nobles assigned to these chambers don't have time to get upset.

Main floor: Located as high above the basement as necessary to get completely above warm rock, the only obstacles here to freedom of layout are the occasional spoiler tube.  3x3 stairway comes straight down from the den to the center of the floor.  This floor sprawls out to cover nearly the entire z level, in 25x25 city blocks separated by 2-tile passages in a repeating grid.  Main floor includes workshops, storage, hospital, meeting hall, mausoleum, and any other utility-based construction.  The cistern is a pool on this level and the level below, and is filled by diverting the surface river (since cavern lakes can easily be polluted by FBs) into a tunnel that becomes a chute down through natural columns in the cavern and part of the cistern's city block.  The farm and pasture are on either side of the cistern.

Dormitories: The city-block design is repeated just above the main floor, except for the central block containing the stairway and additional meeting space.  Each block contains 25 3x3 rooms allowing for fully furnished, happy dwarves.

Noble apartments:  Well-behaved nobles live one level above the dorms.  Depending on proximity to the lower caverns, the layout on this level may be block-based or driven by the geometry of cavern walls or moist rock.

Den: Houses barracks, defenses, and the trade depot.

The first year consists of a mad rush to map the cavern for a suitable aqueduct column and then a 6-dwarf team mines the aqueduct, cistern and farm while the other dwarf fells trees, builds floodgates and mechanisms, butchers animals, makes trade goods, etc., eventually aided by the first migrant waves.  The cistern is usually filled sometime in late summer, at which point the focus turns to getting the foundry up and running (the first caravan brings an anvil right around the time we need one) so we can make iron weapons and armor during the winter to give to the large spring migrant wave when they get conscripted on arrival.  Once the militia is created, everyone can relax and go about engraving hallways, making crafts, equipping the hospital, and all that other stuff.

The biggest dangers of this plan are taking too long to get irrigation and therefore running out of food, and the small chance that the fall caravan might not bring an anvil.  Also, hauling the embark supplies and excess stone probably isn't practical without Peterix's dfautodump, as it will take several months to move just your supplies down to the main floor.  But I know from experience that unloading and hauling supplies for anywhere between 10 and 30 people in the wilderness, even when the hauling distance is close to a mile, takes only an hour at most in real life, so I figure the hauling system in DF is broken anyway and dfautodump is the only reasonable way to do things.

Anyway, by the time I have 100 dwarves, I know exactly what you mean by horizontal movement; the main floor is a storm of dwarven activity and really makes it feel like the settlement is an actual city.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 04:16:00 pm by Makbeth »
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Toady One

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2011, 03:11:45 pm »

There was a mess of quote pyramids and derails for a few pages.  A few on-topic posts mixed with the quotes have also been removed for continuity.  Please stay on track, or at least enough on track to avoid passenger casualties.
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Zigzom24

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2011, 04:06:27 pm »

I prefer horizontal fortresses as well. If you want maximum efficiency, I once built a fortress a few z-levels tall, but instead of hallways, I used stairs. It was an eyesore, but it was the most efficient thing I have ever created. No wasting time going down a hall way, going down a flight of stairs, then down another hallway, just go down! But back on topic, my current fort is above ground and horizontal except for guard towers and my memorial/burial tower. I am thinking of expanding and adding another level to the jail though. The only real problems I see with horizontal fortresses above ground are you cannot engrave to increase room value, and if you have your meeting hall in the very center and later on you decide to expand, you really can't without destroying another part of your fort because it is trapped in the center. I find it incredibly easier to defend by setting up airlocks every so often throughout the halls. If you properly plan and set things up, it can be just as efficient as a vertical without sacrificing aesthetics.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Argument for horizontal fortresses
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2011, 04:13:26 pm »

I prefer horizontal fortresses as well. If you want maximum efficiency, I once built a fortress a few z-levels tall, but instead of hallways, I used stairs. It was an eyesore, but it was the most efficient thing I have ever created. No wasting time going down a hall way, going down a flight of stairs, then down another hallway, just go down! But back on topic, my current fort is above ground and horizontal except for guard towers and my memorial/burial tower. I am thinking of expanding and adding another level to the jail though. The only real problems I see with horizontal fortresses above ground are you cannot engrave to increase room value, and if you have your meeting hall in the very center and later on you decide to expand, you really can't without destroying another part of your fort because it is trapped in the center. I find it incredibly easier to defend by setting up airlocks every so often throughout the halls. If you properly plan and set things up, it can be just as efficient as a vertical without sacrificing aesthetics.

I build the most work inefficient fortresses you can find, short of a constantly changing bridge labyrinth run by pressure plates.*
*I am so going to do that now lol
Anyways, what I mean is, bedrooms are low priority, they go wherever I think is convenient. There are usually 4 main stairwells, N,S,E,W respectively, and these are all equally spaced from a point in the centre, where upon embarking I built the first building of the map EVAR (usually the centre of a farm plot of downward stairway).

I also tend to make defending my fortress extremely fun, i.e. it's extremely easy to defend. And this goes both ways, so I end up having goblins, minatours and what have you infesting parts of my fortress whilst I hold the upper ground. Aaaaand it's incredibly easy to get dwarves straggling outside slaughtered :d. Plus above ground forts are susceptible to buzzards and vultures, whilst not a threat, job spam gets very annoying very quickly.
*Edit, fixed typo
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