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Author Topic: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves  (Read 6402 times)

Buzzing_Beard

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 11:17:43 pm »

My old bee thread touched on sting allergies and the resistance a beekeeper develops by being stung... often.
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GeorgiaPeanuts

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 09:39:51 pm »

My old bee thread touched on sting allergies and the resistance a beekeeper develops by being stung... often.

I like the idea of fleshing beekeeping more. With relation to the allergies in general and specific of bee stings, it should maybe be genetic trait and so your migrants would auto-generate their genetic history, but historical figures would be based on their heritage. In real life the specific allergies you have is not generally genetic. Genetic plays role in whether you will be prone to be allergic to things or not. And what you end up being allergic can be different than your parents.

Something else to think about with regards to the allergies is the theory of being too clean too often can create be catalyst for allergic responses to form. So if your dorfs are always being cleaned because of things like the bathhouses and baths at the entrances then they could develop an allergy to whatever they happen to eat after the trigger for them to be allergic occurs.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2011, 07:39:31 am »

My old bee thread touched on sting allergies and the resistance a beekeeper develops by being stung... often.

I like the idea of fleshing beekeeping more. With relation to the allergies in general and specific of bee stings, it should maybe be genetic trait and so your migrants would auto-generate their genetic history, but historical figures would be based on their heritage. In real life the specific allergies you have is not generally genetic. Genetic plays role in whether you will be prone to be allergic to things or not. And what you end up being allergic can be different than your parents.

Something else to think about with regards to the allergies is the theory of being too clean too often can create be catalyst for allergic responses to form. So if your dorfs are always being cleaned because of things like the bathhouses and baths at the entrances then they could develop an allergy to whatever they happen to eat after the trigger for them to be allergic occurs.

I'd rather have my dwarves be allergic to cheese then have all of their flesh swell up and explode. Just 'sayin.

Buzzing_Beard

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2011, 06:21:40 pm »

     Loud Whispers: "I'd rather have my dwarves be allergic to cheese then have all of their flesh swell up and explode."

I don't know of bees causing explosions, maybe your thinking of the children of Yig?

Couldn't a food allergy cause (hopefully not explosive) swelling too?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2011, 07:19:53 pm »

     Loud Whispers: "I'd rather have my dwarves be allergic to cheese then have all of their flesh swell up and explode."

I don't know of bees causing explosions, maybe your thinking of the children of Yig?

Couldn't a food allergy cause (hopefully not explosive) swelling too?

I'm talking about forgotten beasts, but forgotten bees kinda combine the worst of both worlds.

Deimos56

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2011, 01:18:13 pm »

I'm talking about forgotten beasts, but forgotten bees kinda combine the worst of both worlds.
The Forgotten Beast Lolol SharpSpear has come! A massive honeybee with a billion stingers. It has a pair of fan-like antenna and undulates rhythmically. Beware its deadly venom!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 01:24:12 pm by Deimos56 »
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I'm curious what the barely conscious ai wrote about.
Well that went better than expected.  He went nuts and punched a rabbit to death, then the dogs and the whole dining hall ripped him to shreds.

Buzzing_Beard

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 01:43:45 pm »

I'm not sure which would be more tragic, a dwarf who discovers he's allergic to beer, or a vegan dwarf who won't drink mead because he thinks that honey harvesting is morally reprehensible.

...

Well, the dwarves do kill their hives when they harvest from them, which is kind of a shame.*
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 03:13:44 pm »

I'm not sure which would be more tragic, a dwarf who discovers he's allergic to beer, or a vegan dwarf who won't drink mead because he thinks that honey harvesting is morally reprehensible.

...

Well, the dwarves do kill their hives when they harvest from them, which is kind of a shame.*

There are still the millions more bees where that came from ^_^

Hope ccs doesn't get introduced into DF bees D:

Loud Whispers

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2011, 03:39:30 pm »

CCS = Colony Collapse disorder btw, so sweat shop bee hives could be penalised and have their bees die regularly, unless the bees can find plants/are more spaced out. Hell, why not even be able to feed hives royal jelly to make them healthier?

Happy Buzz? XD

Deimos56

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2011, 07:10:51 pm »

CCS = Colony Collapse disorder btw, so sweat shop bee hives could be penalised and have their bees die regularly, unless the bees can find plants/are more spaced out. Hell, why not even be able to feed hives royal jelly to make them healthier?

Happy Buzz? XD
I wrote a research paper on Colony Collapse Disorder for a class once. Nasty stuff.

I could have sworn it's abbreviated CCD though. ???
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I'm curious what the barely conscious ai wrote about.
Well that went better than expected.  He went nuts and punched a rabbit to death, then the dogs and the whole dining hall ripped him to shreds.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2011, 02:00:22 pm »

Oh... Repeat typo... Oops.
[S key right next to D]

GeorgiaPeanuts

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2011, 08:59:33 pm »

I notice the Colony Collapse Theory in my forts often.

My sweat shop dorfs get mad I don't give them plenty of booze then they rage and berserk and suddenly the whole colony is dead. And if they aren't....... well they have magma for that.
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Cicero

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2011, 12:11:58 am »

Dwarves already have allergies. They are allergic to the sun. As well DF is set during a time in history where being a vegan would be detrimental. Even if you forget that you couldn't manufacter the vitamin supplements you couldn't really afford to be picky about what you ate when there was a real possibility of starving.

Ummm, there is tons of farming options that allow one to not even need meat.

I suppose vegan dorfs could be weaker in general, being more easy to be killed by wounds and others but they could live longer when faced by old age.

Wait what? I'm vegetarian and I'm stronger than a lot of people that I know, and taller than most...what's your logic behind this?

More on topic I think allegies and vegan dwarves would be pretty cool. I imagine them as something that wouldn't come up much, however it would force you to rely on multiple food sources, you couldn't only rely on plump helmets, what if your legendary gem setter is allergic? You can't rely only on meat, what if your dungeon master is a vegan?
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GeorgiaPeanuts

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2011, 12:18:39 pm »

Well cause muscle growth requires protein. It is easier to get protein from animal sources. I understand nowadays it is easy to synthesis and create supplements that don't require the need of animals but back in the time of Dorf fortress I doubt they knew the constituents of food products(protein,fat,carbs, etc) and even if they did I doubt they would have the means to synthesis them or extract them to put in supplements for the vegans. Therefore I would argue that someone being vegan at dorf fortress time would not know that they should eat certain non-animal product foods to ensure that they are meeting their protein requirements. Therefore I suspect the muscles would suffer in some degree a bit of atrophy and dorfs who were vegan would thus be weaker than their meat eating brethren.
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Starver

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Re: Allergies, Diseases, and also Vegan Dwarves
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2011, 01:18:32 pm »

Medieval babies born with various detrimental intolerances, allergies, or just with some other congenital disorder would probably just not survive.  But given the general mortality, it would sink into the statistics of the day of babies dying from (ordinary) malnutrition, accidents, disease or being-looked-at-funnily-by-that-old-woman-who-likes-cats[1].  And I doubt it there would have been much difference between the classes, when very young, and only those that survived long enough might be helped by the best doctoring that could be obtained by the parents.

Just like there'd probably have been roughly the same proportion of mentally disabled in the olden days as now, but the poor ones that could grow up to be a strong farmhand were tolerated as the hard-working village fool, and the rich ones were molly-coddled by their parents and may have made an attractive spouse if backed by loads of inherited/inheritable land, but the male ones may or may not have even continued their line (even if the wives bore 'heirs', if she was a smart lady).


Ahem, back to DF.  There's a few challenges already coming in, regarding vampirism and the like, so right now I'm not too hot on allergies or expanding the syndromes still further, and I agree that dwarves are basically supposed to be tough little bleeders and not so easy to die, but as the game gets developed I could see something along these lines happening.

As to veganism?  Beggers can't be choosers.  Veganism is possible in a society (not necessarily a modern one) where non-meat options are at least not unimaginable.  But veganism must necessarily also include "no wearing of leather armour", or using bone bolts.  I can't see much opportunity in a standard fort (though the player could accommodate some of these things in their playing-style).  However, I could see future dwarven preferences including various anti-preferences towards things like meat, bone, etc.  Bad thoughts from being forced to eat a roast that (as at least one of its ingredients) contains some form of animal product (milk, cheese, the various meats and sweetbreads), or being forced to wear a uniform that includes a leather cloak/whatever.  It might only go to the extent that they'd aim away from products they don't like (but use them if not available) or even completely stop them applying such uniforms and dying of hunger if all meals were meat-'contaminated'.  But that'd latter would be down to a particularly extreme anti-preference.


[1] Who probably knew that the child was showing signs of lactose intolerance, being the bearer of knowledge passed down from other old women who were unofficially dealing with the health and well-being of those in the district.  The ones that could intervene, explain something mumbo-jumpoish about spirits and successfully suggest some things that might help, at least.  Getting blamed for the death was probably not a good thing, and survival was probably only possible if the married women of the district pestered their men-folk to leave alone the woman who had kept their babies healthy, and even (though they wouldn't openly admit it to the menfolk) provided pretty effective pre-emptive and reactive birth control measures (and assistance) to mature and young women, alike.
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