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[Jimmy]

MARE-SONA!

Heh, I actually recognized one of those. Gotta say the game was boring as hell though.

[tehstefan]

Whoah those persona pony crossover video's were really well made.

[LordBucket]

characters were going to have different parts of their personality emphasized for single episodes

Flanderization is more of a permanent thing. Basically what I'm saying is "Just because Rarity was a little bit of an extra drama queen for one episode, for a single gag, doesn't mean this is a permanent change."

But that's the thing. Rarity was never a drama queen to begin with. She was the one who stayed calm when other people were overreacting, and in some cases outright mocked them for doing so. Having her be a drama queen is not showing a "different" part of her personality. It's contradicting a well etablished premise of her character. Kidnapped by diamond dogs? Oh, is that all? Need to confront a dragon? Surely you jest, darling, any dragon worth his hoard will surely be reasonable. Need to face doom and horror, and certain death? Well, if you insist, darling, but you simply can't face certain death looking like that! Let's spruce you up just a little. Go out, facing the end with a sparkle in your eye! That's Rarity.

Having her be helpless and whiny is like giving Bambi a bazooka. It might be good for a cheap laugh, but it's totally contrary to the point of the character. Once you give Bambi a bazooka, he's not Bambi anymore.

But since so few people seem to understand Rarity, let's work with a better example: Fluttershy. She's been getting it way worse than Rarity.

Remember Fluttershy? The shy one? The quiet one?

Here's Fluttershy's introduction from season 1 episode one. Twilight says hello, she jumps. Twilight introduces herself, Fluttershy can barely say her name. And what brings her out of her shell? A baby dragon. Because she loves animals and children and lovable, cute things.

Here's the infamous Fluttershy 'yay' scene. She's with a close friend, Rainbow Dash, who she's known since before she got her cutie mark. It's as close and safe a relationship as she has, but even so she still with all her effort and both lungs full of air she can't bring herself much above a whisper. And even that, she worries is "too loud."

But...bring in one single out of character freakout in Best Night Ever, "You will love me!!!" and now every single episode in season 2 features a Fluttershy that doesn't match who's she's been for the 25 episodes prior.

 * She spent episodes 1 and 2 being "Flutterbitch" compliments of Discord
 * In Lesson Zero, she becomes kung-fu chiropractor, literally yelling and screaming as she does. At the end of the episode, when they went to confront Celestia on Twilight's behalf, she was in front with Applejack, bashing the door down before Rainbow Dash even entered the scene. Fluttershy? Bashing doors down?
 * And now in Nightmare Night, when Twilight and Luna go to her house, she screams at them rather than answering the door.

What, seriously? Fluttershy, the quiet, shy one who can barely say her name and can't say "yay" above a whisper, the Fluttershy who loves animals and babies...is now yelling at children who come to her door to trick or treat?

Rarity was out of character for one episode. Fluttershy has been so badly flanderized that at this point, more people probably associate her with yelling and freakouts out than they do with anything she did in season 1.

[Dsarker]

Hmmm, yeah. That's right. I guess Fluttershy has been a bit less shy lately. It's good to know that ponies never change their character. I'd sure hate it if there was character development.

[LordBucket]

character development

If Twilight suddenly started burning books one episode, for no obious reason, screaming about how she hated learning, and then from that point forward, every single episode had her doing the same, would you call that character development?

That's not character development. It's Character Derailment

[Dsarker]

character development

If Twilight suddenly started burning books one episode, for no obious reason, screaming about how she hated learning, and then from that point forward, every single episode had her doing the same, would you call that character development?

That's not character development. It's Character Derailment

Well, we do have an obvious reason.

Doing her chiropracture on the bear? Who do you -think- she learned that from? Hmmm....oh, yes, that's right. Rainbow Dash, 'master' of all trades. Why would she have done that, you ask?

Well, we've seen before (Dragon Shy, anyone? And what about Episode two, Season one?) that Fluttershy will do what it takes to help her friends. We know that she's friendly with animals and she's willing to shout and raise her voice to help them. She's also not the...well, not the brightest, shall we say, of ponies, and if Rainbow Dash told her that was how it was done, that's how she'd do it.

Why is Rarity doing the couch gag? It's her old position of making fun of those who really ARE being overly dramatic. But.. But you thought she actually -meant- it, didn't you?

[LordBucket]

Doing her chiropracture on the bear?
Why would she have done that, you ask?

It's not the fact of doing chiroprafcture so much as the screaming. "Helping a bear" is suitable. Screeching when doing it is not. Again, it's specifically contrary to the established precedent of her being quiet, unable to even cheer above a whisper, for her to scream and yell like that. But now she does it all the time.

It's her old position of making fun of those who really ARE being overly dramatic. But.. But you thought she actually -meant- it, didn't you?

The first time it happens in Lesson Zero, she crying alone, and Twilight walks in on her. Tough to justify that she's making fun of someone when nobody else was there.

[Dsarker]

Doing her chiropracture on the bear?
Why would she have done that, you ask?

It's not the fact of doing chiroprafcture so much as the screaming. "Helping a bear" is suitable. Screeching when doing it is not. Again, it's specifically contrary to the established precedent of her being quiet, unable to even cheer above a whisper, for her to scream and yell like that. But now she does it all the time.

Wait, what? Numerous episodes of the older season had her screaming and yelling with the best of them. Part Two of the Elements of Harmony, Dragon Shy, Sonic Rainboom, the one with the cockatrice....

It's her old position of making fun of those who really ARE being overly dramatic. But.. But you thought she actually -meant- it, didn't you?

The first time it happens in Lesson Zero, she crying alone, and Twilight walks in on her. Tough to justify that she's making fun of someone when nobody else was there.

I have to admit, you've convinced me with this one. I've never made a private joke without anyone there. Never have I laughed at something to myself.


Hmmm...actually...

[LordBucket]

I've never made a private joke without anyone there.
Never have I laughed at something to myself.

Hmmm...actually...

Well, all I can say then is that if you cry to yourself as a private joke for fun...and then do it twice more when other people are watching, as a private joke for fun...then your worldview is sufficiently different from mine that you're probably not going to agree with anything I say regardless of how many well thought out arguments or corroborative youtube links I give you.

[Flying Dice]

I've never made a private joke without anyone there.
Never have I laughed at something to myself.

Hmmm...actually...

Well, all I can say then is that if you cry to yourself as a private joke for fun...and then do it twice more when other people are watching, as a private joke for fun...then your worldview is sufficiently different from mine that you're probably not going to agree with anything I say regardless of how many well thought out arguments or corroborative youtube links I give you.

I've never even been able to take a non-meta view of the couch, because it was so blatantly thrown in as a sight gag. I can't even begin to treat something as canon, or as proper canon defilement, when it was done because the writers couldn't be arsed to come up with actual humor.

Gotta agree with you on Fluttershy as well: "character development" doesn't mean "changing core personality traits for no apparent reason". Also note that the three times where she did break out of her shell (Sonic Rainboom, Dragonshy, Best Night Ever), she was respectively cheering on a friend who had just achieved a major goal while also saving the life of a mutual friend, protecting the lives of her best friends, and going on a cutie mark breakdown rampage, which has been clearly shown to affect all ponies, regardless of their base personality. In each of those instances,  she had a very, very good reason for doing so, and swiftly reverted after the moment had passed. There was absolutely no reason for her to be portrayed the way she was in Lesson Zero, except for, again, one-off gags. Flutterbitch I can understand, as the Discord episodes were supposed to derail the characters of the mane six, and you don't see people complaining about, say, Applejack suddenly becoming a liar. Nightmare Night has her acting normally, but speaking out of character. It is reasonable for her to be terrified, especially when she is likely the sort of pony to be scared by little foals in costumes, but her screaming about it most certainly is not.


Every time I discuss Lesson Zero, I come back to the same point, which pisses me off to no end: The characters weren't flanderized because the writers and animators wanted to take the show in a new direction, or because they thought they were supposed to be characterized like that. They did it because mediocre sight-gags and exaggerated facial expressions apparently serve as a substitute for character-driven humor (they don't).

[LordBucket]

They did it because mediocre sight-gags and exaggerated facial expressions
apparently serve as a substitute for character-driven humor

It is, as you say, bad writing.

I also suspect that the new director doesn't really understand all the characters. I think he has a good grasp of Rainbow Dash and more less grasp of Twilight and Applejack. Not so much the others. Since he took over I've yet to see Dash do anything that struck me as out of character. Twilight and Applejack have done things that weren't quite right, maybe, but not so horrible that I couldn't see where they came from. Twilight overreacting to what Celestia might do had a precedent. They simply took that and went too far with it. (And unfortunately, showed Celestia angry, which detracted from the humor of twilight overreacting in the first place.) The other three have been doing things that are just totally wrong for them.

Lauren commented in one of her interviews that it was very important for Pinkie Pie that she be the only one to do crazy sight gags. That by letting everyone do them, it diminished her character. I dont think Jayson understands that.

I've been feeling a bit of a "Loony Toons" vibe from recent episodes. I think they're trying too hard to force them to be funny without understanding that if the characters are likable, it doesn't matter if they make us laugh.

the Discord episodes were supposed to derail the characters of the mane six

Agreed. It did make sense in context. But it nevertheless has contributed to the current situation, in which anyone who were to start watching the show now, or say...started watching it on tv when season 2 aired, would have a totally different view of some characters than somebody who's watched from the beginning.

If Fluttershy ever starts acting like Fluttershy again, anyone who started watching with season 2 is probably going to wonder why she's acting all shy and scared when she's consistently been loud and aggressive throughout season 2. I can imagine it now: "Dude, why's Fluttershy being all quiet like that? She's always been the crazy awesome go-to girl who fights and belches and doesn't afraid of anything!" Someone who started watching during season 2 might think that.

[kaijyuu]

know flanderization, but I was more implying that the characters were going to have different parts of their personality emphasized for single episodes when it fit that episode's plot, especially when the character is minor in that episode. Flanderization is more of a permanent thing. Basically what I'm saying is "Just because Rarity was a little bit of an extra drama queen for one episode, for a single gag, doesn't mean this is a permanent change."

I'll use a different word for it if you want. If it's only for one episode, then it's only a criticism for that episode. I at least am not calling jumping the shark

[Dsarker]

They did it because mediocre sight-gags and exaggerated facial expressions
apparently serve as a substitute for character-driven humor

It is, as you say, bad writing.

I also suspect that the new director doesn't really understand all the characters. I think he has a good grasp of Rainbow Dash and more less grasp of Twilight and Applejack. Not so much the others. Since he took over I've yet to see Dash do anything that struck me as out of character. Twilight and Applejack have done things that weren't quite right, maybe, but not so horrible that I couldn't see where they came from. Twilight overreacting to what Celestia might do had a precedent. They simply took that and went too far with it. (And unfortunately, showed Celestia angry, which detracted from the humor of twilight overreacting in the first place.) The other three have been doing things that are just totally wrong for them.

Lauren commented in one of her interviews that it was very important for Pinkie Pie that she be the only one to do crazy sight gags. That by letting everyone do them, it diminished her character. I dont think Jayson understands that.

I've been feeling a bit of a "Loony Toons" vibe from recent episodes. I think they're trying too hard to force them to be funny without understanding that if the characters are likable, it doesn't matter if they make us laugh.

the Discord episodes were supposed to derail the characters of the mane six

Agreed. It did make sense in context. But it nevertheless has contributed to the current situation, in which anyone who were to start watching the show now, or say...started watching it on tv when season 2 aired, would have a totally different view of some characters than somebody who's watched from the beginning.

If Fluttershy ever starts acting like Fluttershy again, anyone who started watching with season 2 is probably going to wonder why she's acting all shy and scared when she's consistently been loud and aggressive throughout season 2. I can imagine it now: "Dude, why's Fluttershy being all quiet like that? She's always been the crazy awesome go-to girl who fights and belches and doesn't afraid of anything!" Someone who started watching during season 2 might think that.

I completely disagree with you.

IC reasons for Fluttershy doing as she did:

Kicking down the door - hey, how is this OOC at all?
Doing the 'karate chiropracture' - Rainbow Dash taught her it. She's been shown to be willing to do things that other ponies tell her if she thinks its important. Especially if it will help an animal. Or, you know, it could be that Twilight has cracked under the pressure she put herself under. For the same reason we see Rarity crying in the first couch scene, for the same reason we see Applejack putting wheat worms in the mix instead of wheat germ...

[Flying Dice]

For the same reason we see Rarity crying in the first couch scene

No... just, no. She is having a tantrum because she misplaced a ribbon! How does that fit at all with her established characterization?! Much less the two later scenes, where it was even more obvious that her throwing a fit was an excuse to use the couch prop gag? The only times she has ever overacted like this were when she was already in a situation, and was making a point about another pony being melodramatic about something. She is sobbing about this ribbon before she even appears in the episode, and proceeds to do this twice more, over equally trivial things, despite the fact that she has endured serious events (kidnapping, facing down dangerous monsters, etc.) without a hint of panic. She wasn't repeating S1 behavior and pointing out Twilight's own trend towards the melodramatic, either, as she was focused entirely on her own "issues", and did so even when there was nopony to pay attention to it. There was absolutely no justifiable reason for in-character Rarity to act like that.

Contrary to what some of the fanbase apparently believes, she isn't some sort of drama queen or clean freak; most of the scenes with that took place in the imaginations of other characters. She has proven time and again that while she does have something with an obsession with proper behavior, she is also willing to endure hardship (such that it is, in Equestria) and work to solve problems without complaint. None of her season one characterization portrays her as a drama queen who has fainting fits whenever she has a minor, temporary setback. She isn't my favorite character by far, but I can recognize when she is being taken OOC for the purposes of boring jokes, and I detest it.

[Dsarker]

For the same reason we see Rarity crying in the first couch scene

No... just, no. She is having a tantrum because she misplaced a ribbon! How does that fit at all with her established characterization?! Much less the two later scenes, where it was even more obvious that her throwing a fit was an excuse to use the couch prop gag? The only times she has ever overacted like this were when she was already in a situation, and was making a point about another pony being melodramatic about something. She is sobbing about this ribbon before she even appears in the episode, and proceeds to do this twice more, over equally trivial things, despite the fact that she has endured serious events (kidnapping, facing down dangerous monsters, etc.) without a hint of panic. She wasn't repeating S1 behavior and pointing out Twilight's own trend towards the melodramatic, either, as she was focused entirely on her own "issues", and did so even when there was nopony to pay attention to it. There was absolutely no justifiable reason for in-character Rarity to act like that.

Contrary to what some of the fanbase apparently believes, she isn't some sort of drama queen or clean freak; most of the scenes with that took place in the imaginations of other characters. She has proven time and again that while she does have something with an obsession with proper behavior, she is also willing to endure hardship (such that it is, in Equestria) and work to solve problems without complaint. None of her season one characterization portrays her as a drama queen who has fainting fits whenever she has a minor, temporary setback. She isn't my favorite character by far, but I can recognize when she is being taken OOC for the purposes of boring jokes, and I detest it.

Oh, but it is the same reason. Twilight has already snapped. Of course she sees Rarity crying. It's what she expects, and her shallow hold on reality just slipped.