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[Urist Imiknorris]

Counterpoint: last game there was an anti-town non-supernatural opponent: a lyncher, who merely wanted to steal some guys valuables.
This game is closed setup. Very closed setup. We expect supernatural opponents, but I wouldn't put it past LNCP to throw in a completely ordinary 'guy with a knife'; indeed, it would confuse us more, which is what he wants.

While indeed Lyncher was present last time, i wouldn't call him defining part of the game. And lyncher is much less serious threat than sk or other killing role.
As for the this being closed setup : It works both ways. This is closed setups so why there should be one ? And don't even start with using mod-bastardness as an argument.

How about the vig? Not supernatural at all - it was just Flandre with an axe. Also, my wincon specifically states that the following must all be eliminated:

-Witches
-Witch-aligned entities
-Magical entities
-Killers

There is plenty of room for mundane anti-town roles. Why are you so against the idea?

What evidence ?

The presence of SKs in the last game; this is evidence that SKs are not unlikely.

Both of them were magical.

See previous note re: possibility of non-supernatural killers. One would think that you didn't realize that mundane killers were a possibility, which would be difficult to do with the town's win condition (I'm assuming that all town-aligned people received the same win condition).

Again, the exactly opposite thing can be derived from game closed setup.

No it can't. You're relying on the game's setup to sow confusion. You're basically saying "we don't know if there are natural threats or not, so you should stop looking for them," which I think we can all agree is a crock of shit.

What ? You don't belive that third parties exist and are malignant ? So why are you voting me then ?

It's interesting that you're questioning NUKE for not believing in SKs, despite the fact that he said nothing of the sort (the exact opposite even - he accused you of being one). You're making things up to get out of a lynch, Simple, and that's not good.

[Ottofar]

I am now inclined to believe Nuke is town.

I cannot say the same for Mr. Imiknorris.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Again, why?

[Powder Miner]

LNCP, I know I was gone. That would probably because I was at a church camp (Like I SAID) and had no way of getting even close to a computer. RL trumps mafia, I'm sorry if it's not "activity that should be seen in a mafia game.)

Everyone:
There seems to be quite bit of a ruckus over the fact that I used a bad word to describe it. I don't want to accidentally get a second vote listed because I am deeply against cheating, and it feels like cheating to me.

Simple, you seem to believe that because there's apparently no magical doods, there can be no SKs. Possibilities of mundane killers aside, what makes you so sure there's no magical doods?

[lordnincompoop]

LNCP, I know I was gone. That would probably because I was at a church camp (Like I SAID) and had no way of getting even close to a computer. RL trumps mafia, I'm sorry if it's not "activity that should be seen in a mafia game.)

Must've missed it, sorry. For the next time, may I suggest you bold it for visibility?

[NUKE9.13]

Simple, you seem to believe that because there's apparently no magical doods, there can be no SKs. Possibilities of mundane killers aside, what makes you so sure there's no magical doods?

Hey. Simple never said that. In fact, he nearly said the opposite, suggesting that every threat is a 'magical dood'.
Simple is obvscum, but that doesn't mean you can get away with not reading what he writes.

[Powder Miner]

Oooohhhh... Sorry, I just skimmed the thread (I'm in a rush right now) and that's what I gleaned from Jack AT's suspicions about his apparently being not believing in there being an SK, and UI suggesting mundane things.

[NativeForeigner]

I hate missing out on RVS. Makes catching up later a pain.

I'll make an informed post tomorrow.

[Jim Groovester]

NUKE9.13,

Also, I don't really feel like parsing out a case from a wall of text from some smug jackass. What are you voting Simple for?

Also,

Or you could quit being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian and answer the damn question.

[Dariush]

I've been extremely busy this weekend, and this is honestly the first time I see people being prodded on weekends. *sigh*

Just letting you know I'm alive, meaningful post a bit later.

[NUKE9.13]

Also, I don't really feel like parsing out a case from a wall of text from some smug jackass. What are you voting Simple for?

Ah, yes.
First, I was looking over everyone's flavour, hoping maybe to find something suspicious.
It occurred to me that Simple's brother might have been traumatised by the events of last game; he might have a grudge against the inquisition. As he died recently, it occurred that he might have entrusted upon his deathbed that Simple carry on his desire for vengeance. I hypothesized thus that Simple might be a SK of some sort.
I suggested this hypothesis, watched to see how Simple would react. His reaction did not please. He called my accusation ridiculous, insisted that SKs were impossible.
This was bullshit (2 SKs in the last game alone). I pressured him more regarding his reaction, and it just got worse. His position changed; SKs were possible, but not supernatural ones- all threats in the game must be supernatural. This is also blatantly false. Not to mention all the ancillary bullshit that he has been spouting; panicky and flawed arguments of a sort which just scream 'scum'.
His continued attempts not just to deny my accusation, but rather to attack it for flawed reasons, convinced me that he is, indeed, an all-natural SK of the sort whose existence he denies.

Or you could quit being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian and answer the damn question.

Or you could quit being a conformist for the sake of being a conformist and stop asking me to answer the damn question. [/childish]

Anyway, no, thank you. I will not answer the question.

[Dariush]

Dariush: Would you like to share anything else from your flavor? History, hobbies, something of that sort?

I've been a strong opponent of the idea of any supernatural existence, as well as religion and superstitious belief in the 'four humors', believing instead in the more logical system based on observation and experimentation, though I only have began to study such a system and can't be really considered a doctor or a scientist.

Now, why did you choose to ask this question to me and TB and not anyone else?

CoF:
1) Why have you not changed your randomvote? What are your suspicions?
2) You promised content, but all we've had was two noncommital one-liners that look suspiciously like activelurking. Was that your promised content, or are you still planning to make good on that promise?

Simple, can you say with absolute certainty that your brother is the 'you' from the previous game or a relative or simply has a same name? Do you have any solid references to the previous game in your flavor?

Nuke, your case against Simple is complete and utter shit. He quite plainly was talking about it being unlikely that there's a literal SK, which you twisted and said he denied the possibility of an SK role. When he pointed this out, you claimed that 'you wouldn't put it past LNCP to throw in an actual guy with a knife'. Thus, you have 'absolute confidence' in Simple being an SK because of something LNCP might mave thrown in the game. Go hang, you fuck.

[Toaster]

Sorry.  I cite weekend (and going from XP to Win7).

Simple:  (emphasis mine)

There is probably a killing role out there, but i don't believe it would be a "crazy guy with a knife" kind of SK. And only that kind fit into Nuke's way of thinking. I believe that SK are more likely to be magical (Wizard,Golem,Doppelganger,Vampire and alike) as in my opinion supernatural threat is a basic setting feature. In one thing Nuke is right : we should find third parties anyway and it should be our priority. Another thing is how can we distinguish one from another.

I take issue with this.  The underlined part is fine- yes, the vast majority of third-parties are anti-town to some extent and should be dealt with accordingly.  The bold part, however, is not correct.  All scum are scum- finding one over the other (except in certain cases) is not that big a deal... unless you're on team Mafia, since they want their opposition gone.  Wanting third parties out at a priority is a good sign of being mafia-based scum.  So tell me, why are third parties more important to find?


Nuke:  Why do you think Simple is SK specifically as opposed to mafia (witch)?

Ok, folks, I invite you to consider this latest post.

I ask you. Is there a single point in it which you think bears sufficient weight that I need to actually respond to it?

I don't think there is; I think the flaws in all of them are obvious enough. However, if you can not see the flaws in any of his points, please ask, and I will point them out. I just don't want to waste time by doing a line-by-line analysis if it isn't necessary.

It makes you look lazy, at least.



Ottofar:  I believe I've yelled at you in the past about giving reasons with your votes.


Simple:

Counterpoint: last game there was an anti-town non-supernatural opponent: a lyncher, who merely wanted to steal some guys valuables.
This game is closed setup. Very closed setup. We expect supernatural opponents, but I wouldn't put it past LNCP to throw in a completely ordinary 'guy with a knife'; indeed, it would confuse us more, which is what he wants.

While indeed Lyncher was present last time, i wouldn't call him defining part of the game. And lyncher is much less serious threat than sk or other killing role.
As for the this being closed setup : It works both ways. This is closed setups so why there should be one ? And don't even start with using mod-bastardness as an argument.

Why ? I thought what i should be doing is pointing out flaws in scum reasoning?

Pointing out flaws in someones reasoning (there's nothing stopping you from pointing out flaws in town reasoning, mind) is fine. But my reasoning was not flawed; you made up a flaw to point out, which, I think you should be able to agree, is not ok.

You see nothing wrong in building your all reasoning upon one fact than you earlier belived was a lie ? Why would my brother feel need for revenge on inqusition if they basically saved his life back then ? Is there even inquisition in this game ? Why "perfectly ordinary" claim is suddenly something scummy ?

You're using mod-based WIFOM here.  It's not a good way to defend yourself. 


Urist I:  I love how you're slipping in a reference to your town wincon as an argument that someone else is scum.  Phrasing your arguments like that smacks of preemptive defense.


Dariush:  Do you have any solid references to the previous game?  Also, are you voting Nuke because you always do?

[Dariush]

Dariush:  Do you have any solid references to the previous game?

No, I don't.

Also, are you voting Nuke because you always do?

No, I'm voting him because he's such a stupid fucking idiot as he always is.

[NUKE9.13]

Ah. Firstly, Extend. Six hours left in the day, not enough time for everyone to speak their piece, I fear.

Nuke, your case against Simple is complete and utter shit.

Lets analyse that statement, shall we?

He quite plainly was talking about it being unlikely that there's a literal SK

A literal SK is a SK. SKs are pretty simple things.
To be clear, when Simple said 'literal SK', I assumed he meant: someone who has the Wincon 'kill everyone'

which you twisted and said he denied the possibility of an SK role.

And he didn't? A literal SK is a SK. Last games SKs were literal SKs. They had twists, yes, but their core was, litterally, SKs.

When he pointed this out

He didn't point this out. He backtracked, and started talking about how all threats would be supernatural.

You claimed that 'you wouldn't put it past LNCP to throw in an actual guy with a knife'.
Thus, you have 'absolute confidence' in Simple being an SK because of something LNCP might have thrown in the game.

No. I have absolute confidence because of his reaction. I had base suspicions because of his background.
My saying that LNCP might throw in a 'guy with a knife' is a counterpoint to his suggestion that LNCP wouldn't.
See, like this:
I have a case;
Simple suggests that my case is invalid because X (where X is natural-SKs being implausible)
I show that X is not true, restoring my cases validity.
My original case remains.

Go hang, you fuck.

Dariush.
I don't get it. Why do you do this, every single game? Do you really not see that you are Meta-tunnelling me?
You don't have a case against me. Or rather, your case is 'your case against Simple has flaws'. That would not be a sufficient reason to vote someone, even if it was true.
Please, Dariush. I'm asking you, from the bottom of my heart, to stop being such a dick.

Nuke:  Why do you think Simple is SK specifically as opposed to mafia (witch)?

Well, my case is based on his flavour, which to me does not suggest witch. My theory is that he has a grudge against the inquisition. For him to go so far as to join the witches to fulfil this grudge seems unlikely. Possible, yes. But I think it is far more likely that he is acting alone.

It makes you look lazy, at least.

Ah, you got me. Yeah, it was me being lazy.
It is hard (time-consuming, but not impossible) to bring into words all the various things that are wrong with Simple's arguments, but just reading them makes me facepalm at their stupidity. I assumed that others would have a similar reaction.
However, as I said, if you do not understand the obvious flaws in Simple's posts, please, ask, and I will explain them.

No, I'm voting him because he's such a stupid fucking idiot as he always is.

...
:/