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[Hannibal Barcalounger]

I've had a hell of a time getting my Marksdwarves to train at archery ranges. I've read through the wiki, searched the forums several times, and still wound up with some rusty marksdwarves who stand in the barracks either waiting on dodging demonstrations or doing Individual Combat Drills that unfortunately do not include any actual shooting.

I just haven't been able to repeat others' reported successes, so much of what's out there is either untested conjecture, or obsolete info based on previous versions.

So let's do this up right. In this thread, we'll do the following:

[0. post a link to another thread if someone's already done this. Search fail, but overall success!]
1. Make a list of methods that have been reported to be successful for getting marksdwarves to train at archery targets.
2. Test them rigorously and report back.
3. Post saves for successes in order to prove the results, make it easy for anyone to duplicate the setups, AND make the tests easily available for future versions that change behavior.

P.S. I know that firing-squad setups with wood bolts and armored live targets are the most reliable and fastest method for training up marksdorf skill. I know this. It's not necessary to point it out. I'm interested in figuring out how to make it happen in a barracks setup with archery targets, for science as much as anything else.

[Hannibal Barcalounger]

Known-Good Method

Save File if you want to view the minimum setup yourself and compare it with your setup in another fortress.

• Make bolts.
• Make crossbows.
• Make quivers.
• Make a squad and assign dwarves to it.
• Assign crossbows as the weapon for this squad.
• Construct an archery target.
• Designate this archery target as a range.
• Make sure the range is at least 7 blocks in total length, including the target and where your marksdwarf will stand.
• In the range properties, assign your squad to train at the range.

Known issues:

• if the dwarves in your squad already have certain jobs (miner, hunter, woodcutter, possibly others), these jobs have a hidden uniform of sorts, which already specifies some equipment (picks, axes, &c). It may be difficult to get them to drop that weapon and go pick up their crossbows. Even though hunters already carry crossbows this might still be cause for confusion, so it's best to simply choose your marksdwarves from dwarves whose professions do not cause them to carry any weapon-ish equipment in their inventory.
• If you don't have very many bolts, it's possible that the 100 bolts automatically reserved for hunters (ammo screen on military, access with m-f) will keep your marksdwarves from training. Either produce more bolts, or reduce the amount reserved for hunters.

For further investigation:

• specific per-bolt experience gains from archery practice, hunting, and combat with enemies.
   -- sustained XP gain rates from above over several years (i.e., combat might be best on a per-bolt basis, but even regular sieges might not provide enough live targets.)
• effects of designating particular bolt types as Combat or Training
• minimum usable range length (proof of above used 7-space ranges)
• optimum squad size (proof of above used 2-dwarf squad)
• efficient configurations for bolt recyling

[Hannibal Barcalounger]

Distractions and Dead Ends

• It is NOT NECESSARY to designate an extra barracks that overlaps the archery ranges (for example, starting from an armor stand or weapon rack in the same room). Your dwarves will train with only archery ranges designated and assigned to the squad.
• It is NOT NECESSARY to designate the archery ranges as spaces for squad equipment, individual equipment, or to sleep. Your dwarves will train with only the T designation showing in the range properties.
• You may wish to assign a training schedule to your dwarves, but they will take up the Archery Practice job and go shoot bolts at the range even if their squad is currently inactive or has No Scheduled Order for the current month.

[SpiralDimentia]

I've never had a problem with it. I put archery targets in the barracks, Q to highlight them, then T to Train and Q for their equipment, which I don't think actually does anything. They hang around like regular training squads, and every so often they wander to the ranges and start unloading. I've had Adept Marksdwarves from novice without ever encountering an enemy.

And for ammo, on the ammunition screen, I give them (1000) wooden bolts set for training, and metal bolts set for combat.

[Crashmaster]

Bronze colossus behind fortifications.

[Hannibal Barcalounger]

"I know that firing-squad setups with wood bolts and armored live targets are the most reliable and fastest method for training up marksdorf skill. I know this. It's not necessary to point it out."

Bronze colossus behind fortifications.

Very sporting of you to mention it Crashmaster. Hugs. High-five.

Now that we've gotten the comedy option out of the way, let's not have anyone else contribute it, and concentrate on the science instead.

[Hannibal Barcalounger]

I've never had a problem with it. I put archery targets in the barracks, Q to highlight them, then T to Train and Q for their equipment, which I don't think actually does anything. They hang around like regular training squads, and every so often they wander to the ranges and start unloading.

OK so this is a good start. Especially because I've done the same thing, down to Q and T, and my dudes REFUSE TO SHOOT. Can you upload a save so that we can look at all the little differences like starting skill level, stockpile distance, overlapping barracks, squad schedules, and all that?

[SpiralDimentia]

I've never learned how to upload a save. However, starting skill level is irrelevant. I've had those not even dabbling use it. I have a bolt stockpile in the barracks itself, which may be a factor since I don't recall seeing them use it before I included the stockpile. The archery ranges are each their own little room, but all of them are within the larger actual barracks. And squad schedules I don't use, I just have them train 24/7 all year round, bad thoughts be damned.

[Hannibal Barcalounger]

So as I understand it, you've got something like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

=========
|T|T|T|T|
| | | | |
| | | | |
|       |
|  ###  |
|♫ ###  |
|  ###  |
|       |
| | | | |
| | | | |
|T|T|T|T|
=========

Key:
= is wall
| is wall
T is constructed archery target
# is ammo stockpile
♫ is armor stand


Each of the shooting lanes is declared as an individual, separate barracks, with the squad set to train in it (T when examining room). Furthermore, the entire thing is also one large barracks, declared from the armor stand.

Is that correct? Is anything missing or inaccurate?

If so, what are the squad settings in the armor-stand barracks? Train? Sleep? Anything?

[SpiralDimentia]

Yeah, that's pretty much perfectly what I have. I have the armor stand or wepaon rack designated at Q-T as well, but also Z, so that they can sleep in the barracks if they so choose, with some beds in there. They've skilled up quite nicely, since skill goes up per shot, and not per hit. Takes a lot of wooden bolts though, they go through them like mad.

[Hannibal Barcalounger]

Well that's a huge head-scratcher. I have the same setup (lots of lanes, each designated individually, one big overlapping barracks with beds and bolt pile). But my guys, when they train as a group, end up watching a dodging demonstration. And when they train on their own, they stand right next to the targets and do an "Individual Combat Drill" that doesn't involve shooting.

Only difference I can think of right now is that my guys are set to train one month, then have No Scheduled Orders for three months.

Can you check for me what job they're doing when they're actually shooting? Is it "Individual Combat Drill" or is it "Practice Archery"?

Also, to upload a save:

[Edit: verified procedure.]

• Save and quit DF as usual.
• Go to your DF folder.
• Look in Data, then Save.
• Choose the region folder that you've been playing.
    -  If you're having trouble finding the right folder, take the one with the most-recently-modified world.sav file.
• Copy the entire region folder to your desktop or someplace convenient.
• Make a .zip file or other compressed archive of it - you need to upload a single file, not a folder.
• Go to the DF File Depot at http://dffd.wimbli.com/category.php?id=19 and register if you don't already have an account there.
• Once you've registered, use the upload option and choose the compressed, single-file copy.
• Once the upload finishes, copy the DFFD link and post it here.

[Calech]

After a recent aquifer-less fort made me revise my usual 'water-for-goods' trade policy to 'bolts-for-goods' I started up a fortress with a bigger focus on marksdwarves than normal.

The setup I used for training was;

- 3 Archery targets set up in the communal underground area, each defined as an archery range
- No barracks was defined
- Squads of marksdwarves were assigned in the military screen but none of them were set to 'active'
- Each squad was set to use each archery range for training (only)
- (not intentional, but) No separate stockpile was assigned for ammo so they had to go to the central stockpile to reload

With this setup the major limiting factor seemed to be cranking out bolts fast enough to keep my hunters (well, hunter - only had one) and military supplied. Even whilst set as inactive the dwarves would train with no assigned job (although I'm given to understand this may be limited by personality, which I haven't checked - assignments were largely made by profession, starting with those I don't use), and I had the ranges in use fairly consistently throughout.

Regrettably the fort failed as a couple of squads of goblins decided live training would be better than sparring for their melee skills. (Note to self: armour is usually useful. Weapons also help a little.)

I'm still quite fond of the notion of using marksdwarves, so I may revisit this and see if there's any way to replicate this 'worker-militia' and to apply it to a full-time military.

[SpiralDimentia]

'Practice Archery', and you'll have to wait a while. I'm not on my laptop right this minute.

[Hannibal Barcalounger]

No rush. Even if it takes us weeks to sort this out and figure out what kind of errors will break a proper training setup, the only thing that matters in the end is getting the info correct and then making it available to others who are stumped.

[ZeroSumHappiness]

I recently did this with a two-dwarf squad:

0. Produce equipment: Quivers, crossbows, bolts
1. Equip a marksdwarf squad with said equipment.
2. (b)uild (A)rchery target somewhere.
3. Define archery target using the (q)uery workshop menu.  Make sure the room is sized and the direction is set.  Set it to (t)rain for the marksdwarf squad.

At this point, an archer would go use the target.  Repeating steps 2 and 3 would allow more than one archer to train simultaneously.

Optional, missed bolt collection:
4. Set the archery target room at maximum distance so that dwarves miss more.
5. Channel out to the sides of the target, but not in front of it.
6. In the (o)rders menu, set ammo collection up.  (Don't remember exact settings.)

Theoretical, faster training:
I believe that, since a dwarf won't fire when a bolt is in the air, you may get more throughput by minimizing the length of the archery range so that the fired bolt immediately impacts, allowing the dwarf to fire again.  Also, I think someone in another thread said 5000 bolts to legendary status.  So without bolt recycling that's 200 make bolts jobs.

Open questions:
Does anyone know if it's possible to set up bolt recycling in the square in front of the target?