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Author Topic: Dale Farm  (Read 2599 times)

Chattox

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Dale Farm
« on: October 19, 2011, 02:31:43 am »

Is anyone watching this? I'm keeping track of it live, and I have to say I don't really know where I stand. With stuff like this, both sides of the argument will do stupid things that they shouldn't have done, so it'll end up as a shit-flinging contest in the end. But for now, how do you think it's going to go?

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, Dale farm is the biggest traveller site in the UK, with thousands of people "unlawfully" living there. There has been a legal battle going on for months trying to get them evicted, which has cost the taxpayer thousands if not millions of pounds. On the one hand you have the council, who want to get rid of these "illegally placed" travellers, but on the other hand, you have innocent families with nowhere else to go (who can afford a house these days?)
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ed boy

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 03:03:37 am »

thousands of people "unlawfully" living there
get rid of these "illegally placed" travellers
What's with the "s? There's no question about if they are legal or not, the law is quite clear. The occupancy of that site has been at least partly illegal for several decades. This is not something out of the blue, this is the culmination of years of effort to get them removed from the site.
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Vattic

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 03:14:00 am »

I also have mixed feelings about this. My parents found themselves in a tough situation just after my birth and spent some time living on land illegally. They had no money, had nowhere to go, and the local counsel was not sympathetic. I pass the place every so often and there are still people living there but everything gets cleared out once or twice a year.

I agree that neither side is ever exactly blameless but the travelling community has been having a progressively harder time over the last couple of decades at least; A real sense of exclusion and an "us and them" attitude has been fostered. I do dislike the way they often manipulate the law to their advantage, especially when it comes to planning permission, but many besides them are guilty of that.
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Jake

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 03:21:18 am »

What's with the "s? There's no question about if they are legal or not, the law is quite clear. The occupancy of that site has been at least partly illegal for several decades. This is not something out of the blue, this is the culmination of years of effort to get them removed from the site
We might start with the fact that only half the site lacks planning permission, and the half that doesn't is directly adjacent to an existing traveller site and was previously occupied by a scrapyard before the travellers purchased it to expand their living space. The only reason they've been denied planning consent is because they're travellers.
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ed boy

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 03:36:24 am »

What's with the "s? There's no question about if they are legal or not, the law is quite clear. The occupancy of that site has been at least partly illegal for several decades. This is not something out of the blue, this is the culmination of years of effort to get them removed from the site
We might start with the fact that only half the site lacks planning permission
I recognized that in my post - look at the acronym. Besides, I would call 49 of 54 plots significantly more than 'half'

and the half that doesn't is directly adjacent to an existing traveller site and was previously occupied by a scrapyard before the travellers purchased it to expand their living space.
It doesn't make what they're doing suddenly legal.

The only reason they've been denied planning consent is because they're travellers.
Until you can back it up, that's speculative bollocks.

Also, is it just me or is the name 'traveller' starting to look a little inaccurate?
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scriver

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2011, 04:25:18 am »

Does "traveller" mean Romani (In Sweden they used to be called "the Travelling Folk", that's why I assume it)? Or is it just a word for homeless? I can't tell from context.


Quote from: ed boy link=topic=95016.msg2693322#msg2693322 date=1319013384
I recognized that in my post - look at the acronym.
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micelus

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 04:32:00 am »

From what I've read (which is 90% wikipedia) the travellers are indeed Romani. A subgroup, I believe. Seems that people discriminate against them greatly in Ireland.
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ed boy

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 04:32:51 am »

Does "traveller" mean Romani (In Sweden they used to be called "the Travelling Folk", that's why I assume it)? Or is it just a word for homeless? I can't tell from context.
All they've been saying on the news is 'Traveller'. Some people that they have been interviewed say that, as some people have been living there in excess of twenty years, they should no longer be called 'travellers', though.

Not all people can see those things.
My bad.

By the way, BBC news has a live stream of the eviction attempt.
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Chattox

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 05:06:54 am »

Seems that people discriminate against them greatly in Ireland.

This is a bit of a generalising statement, but in travellers in Ireland, and Irish travellers in England, are known as Tinkers. They have a reputation (accurate or not) of being thieves and extortionists, the kind of people who offer to tarmac your drive, do a half assed job and then threaten you until you pay them the agreed price and then some.

Quote from: ed boy
Also, is it just me or is the name 'traveller' starting to look a little inaccurate?

Well, they're kind of stuck, really. They're penalised for travelling, so they try to settle down, but then just get cleared out again as we are seeing here.
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Korgus

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 05:24:53 am »

From what I've read (which is 90% wikipedia) the travellers are indeed Romani. A subgroup, I believe. Seems that people discriminate against them greatly in Ireland.

AFAIK, they're not the same thing.
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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 05:42:26 am »

"Travellers" in the UK are usually of Irish descent, sometimes white British. They're not Roma.
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lordcooper

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 06:44:47 am »

And FYI there is generally a fair amount of bad blood between the two groups.

More on topic, if they've been there for a couple of decades why not just leave them be?
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Starver

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 07:33:31 am »

The main argument that I've heard from the (so-called, and YMMV but I'm going to call them that, anyway) Travellers about their breaching of clear Green Belt laws is that the site involved (the aforementioned scrapyard) is obviously not 'green'.

The main trouble with that being that the scrapyard ceased operating prior to settlement (though there's dispute about what this "green" land was used for, and by whom, in-between that and the settlement proper. 

The Travellers own the entirety of the site, but mere ownership of the land does not convey the right to use that land for any purpose, even outside of Green Belt zones.  There are rules to be followed and much as there are people who try to get around them[1], to allow the Travellers to have broken them sets a bad precedent and encourages a lot of others to try to creep in under the radar.  (This is the case in the UK, at least, but from another recent post on this forum on an unrelated issue, I know there are some areas where permissions are more relaxed.  Even so, there's few places I would expect a chemical factory to put down roots without some involvement of local, national or international authorities in granting permissions.  If there aare any such freeform ones, they're going to be in one of the Bond Villain's traditional backyards, whether that be tundra, inside of the a mountain or undersea, I suspect.)

I have sympathy with all those looking to settle down, but it looks like mistakes were made by some of those residents being involved (which affected the rest) and I can't see backing off to be a good solution.

There's a housing situation in the UK at the moment (some blame Thatcher's selling of council assets to their tenants without using the funds to build replacement homes for those still needing 'social housing', something the latest resurgent version of this initiative is specifically going to be designed to avoid) but I believe honest efforts were made to offer housing for the illegal residents, elsewhere...  The problem being (with reasonable or unreasonable grounds for objection, according to your POV) that they were elsewhere, and not in the community.  But compare with the 'nativel' residents of the nearby towns and villages where the children either have to continue to live with their parents (or their in-laws, upon marriage) or move out of the area.

It would be nice if everyone could be given their Carte Blanche to settle where they want (within nominal land-ownership possibilities, of course) but while there may well be a thought-crime level of discrimination against the Travellers, to give them a right that others do not get is equally discriminatory.  The balance point may not be at the point where the current line in the sand has been drawn, but it's a line that those involved should have been aware of.


It is a point of note that the "legal half" was applied for, and obtained as, residential buildings and the council (although not necessarily the local residents) have had no problems with that.  What is at dispute is the area for which the cpermission was refused and (as already said) building (and/or parking, of semi-permanent housing) on that area might have been better dealt with a lot earlier, but I suspect that a mix of unofficial sympathies, not wishing to appear heavy-handed and (at least in part) the settlement activities going unnoticed by those who really should have known (being essentially camouflaged by the existing housing and activity) is the root of the problem.  Maybe if Google Earth-type images had been as easily available, back then, this would not have come to pass.  So it's obviously Google's fault. :)



[1] There was a case of someone who built an unauthorised house on his countryside plot, but hid it behind a haystack for enough time that when he finally dismantled that and objections were raised, it was beyond the notional time limit for objections and he (I think, I've not heard if it went otherwise since then) had to be allowed to keep it there.  I think, from half-remembered details, that a lot of the legal confusion recently applied to Dale Farm's structures might be regarding which permanent structures pre-date the cut-off, and what is permanent structure and what is temporary[2] and thus subject to differing rules.

[2] There was another supposed story about a picnicing couple being charged for erecting a temporary structure without appropriate permissions... i.e. a windbreak.  I only half-remember the details, it was a silly-season type story, anyway, so probably humorously represented in some way to make a Jobsworth employee of the authority even more ridiculous-looking.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 07:43:03 am »

Wouldn't money be better spent giving them a place to go? IE, homeless shelters?
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Starver

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 08:40:42 am »

From what I've heard (but please feel free to consider the press coverage I got this through to be biased), re-housing solutions have been offered.  And rejected.

It would, of course, mean the separation of their community (both "legal" and "illegal" halves being separated and even the illegal section would not find itself all in the same neighbourhood.  I can see why they don't want that, even while they consider it possible to resist the eviction, but it would be a big ask for the council (or whoever) to supply a unified alternate destination.

Surprisingly, or not, there are often calls from councils (including the one involved) for land-owners and communities to offer up "Traveller Sites".  Even if landowners come forward, there's often resistance by the neighbouring (and not-so-neighbouring) populations that usually puts the lid on such proposals.  Rightly or wrongly.  Again, YMMV.
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