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[Shakerag]

Remalle: Why did you think Toaster being NKd was "a dumb scum play"?

Shark: I had forgotten about the godfather role, but that's a good point.  Looking back at Andrew/Toaster interaction D2, I don't see anything that would conflict with his claim.  However, I don't see anything that 100% verifies his claim either.  So I can't take his claim and inspections as gospel yet.

I have a feeling Think would say "power roles send in stuff" regardless of whether or not there are power roles, so as to not inadvertantly give away information about the game. 

I posted that I am town, because I am supporting a LYLO massclaim.  What's your role?

If you will direct your gaze toward the lurkertracker for this game, you will see that you do indeed have fewer posts than shoes (as of this writing).

I'm neither being flattering nor trying to be your friend, just calling things like I see them. 

I'm still voting Remalle because I'm not 100% convinced of Andrew's cop claim yet, nor do I think Think's choice of words guarantees power roles. 

You seem to be more jumpy in this last post of yours, Shark.  And you're awfully quick to just believe Andrew's claim.  Maybe you're scum and getting a little over-eager to myslynch someone and win? 

Shoes, Remalle, Shark:  Let's hear your roles. 

Shoes: I'd like to hear your thoughts on everyone left as well.  Give me detail.

[Andrew425]

Andrew: Can I have your reasons for your inspection picks please?

I picked Toaster the first night because he's an experienced player and a IC. If he was scum, he'd be able to trick us easily.

I picked Remalle the next night because he had said a few questionable things. It was a toss up between him and shark because I wanted to go into lylo with someone who was active enough that we could cut apart the defences. The majority of Remalle's conversation involved me so I didn't think i'd be able to gleen much from it if I had picked to investigate shark.

I need a bit more time to throw out an accusation because this will take a lot of cross examining. Expect my vote later tonight

[Shark]

Remalle: Why did you think Toaster being NKd was "a dumb scum play"?

Shark: I had forgotten about the godfather role, but that's a good point.  Looking back at Andrew/Toaster interaction D2, I don't see anything that would conflict with his claim.  However, I don't see anything that 100% verifies his claim either.  So I can't take his claim and inspections as gospel yet.

I have a feeling Think would say "power roles send in stuff" regardless of whether or not there are power roles, so as to not inadvertantly give away information about the game. 

I posted that I am town, because I am supporting a LYLO massclaim.  What's your role?

If you will direct your gaze toward the lurkertracker for this game, you will see that you do indeed have fewer posts than shoes (as of this writing).

I'm neither being flattering nor trying to be your friend, just calling things like I see them. 

I'm still voting Remalle because I'm not 100% convinced of Andrew's cop claim yet, nor do I think Think's choice of words guarantees power roles. 

You seem to be more jumpy in this last post of yours, Shark.  And you're awfully quick to just believe Andrew's claim.  Maybe you're scum and getting a little over-eager to myslynch someone and win? 

Shoes, Remalle, Shark:  Let's hear your roles. 

Shoes: I'd like to hear your thoughts on everyone left as well.  Give me detail.

"You seem to be more jumpy in this last post of yours, Shark.  And you're awfully quick to just believe Andrew's claim.  Maybe you're scum and getting a little over-eager to myslynch someone and win?"

I believe andrew because it's LYLO and we need to narrow down who to lynch, and no one has claimed against him. Andrew doesn't have too much reason to lie by telling people that remalle is innocent, exempting the situation that andre and remalle are scumbuddies. I seriously doubt that because remalle was going to lynch andrew with good reasoning. It also helps me with my case against shoes. You've probably gathered I think you two are the scumteam, because 2 out of 3 of us are scum.

Also, if andrew is lying, it's dangerous to claim cop. The game, when it started, had a 50% chance of a cop. Andrew doesn't seem very experienced to me, I doubt he could pull off that lying well

Are you protecting shoes? He has done everything I've accused him for. 2 out of 3 of us are scum, and it seems like you're trying to slow me down when shoes is scummy as hell.(hrmm...) Feel free to read D1 and D2, he never helps town, ever. He's clearly avoiding it, but also trying to stay in the game. What kind of person wants town to fail, but also wants to live? Scum. And you ignore my reasoning behind my vote and call me "jumpy." It's early in the day and there's no hammer. If we find reason to think andrew is lying, i'll rethink, but you seem to be freaking out because andrew narrowed it down to 3 people for us and one of them is you. No one else so far has thought he's lying.

You're attacking remalle, who's been hunting, for dumb reasons. You don't like how he switches a vote to caz, however, if he didn't, we would have killed who is prolly the cop. It's LYLO and you're willing to lynch someone who has a chance of being innocent, rather than someone unconfirmed. This is scummy as hell.

Also, it's pretty obvious that i'm basic town. We've had our cop claim. I don't know why a doctor would claim doctor, it makes them a target. I'm pretty sure the doctor dying hurts town too much, it's not worth the claim.

So yeah, tl;dr i'm pretty sure you two are the scumteam, and I will protect those who are town because this is LYLO.

[Remalle]

Remalle: Why did you think Toaster being NKd was "a dumb scum play"?

Because it was a ridiculously obvious play.  Since Jim was killed the first night, it was expected that the other IC, Toaster, would go on the second.  In fact, if Toaster had survived, I would have immediately suspected him simply for being alive.  Since they killed him the mafia lost themselves a potential scapegoat, which is why I consider the choice dumb.
If I were scum I would go for someone less expected and yet still a threat (Shark) or a lurker just for being annoying (Shoes).

Shoes, Remalle, Shark:  Let's hear your roles.

I'm so vanilla diabetics need to be careful around me.

Shark:

Also, it's pretty obvious that i'm basic town. We've had our cop claim. I don't know why a doctor would claim doctor, it makes them a target. I'm pretty sure the doctor dying hurts town too much, it's not worth the claim.

Not at this point in the game.  Doctor only has at most one more night to operate anyway.  The cop needs to stay alive tonight, so the doctor will protect him, the cop investigates either of the two other players, the doctor will die, and the game goes into lylo with the cop having the answer.  That gives the town the best possible odds.  So the doctor HAS to claim so the cop knows who not to investigate.

Shoes: how much time would you spend, if you were scumhunting, on investigating Shark and Shake, who are still not clear, as opposed to Andrew and I, who are possibly clear?  Also how about this situation: Andrew and I are 100% clear, and you know you're town, so you know Shark and Shake are scum.  Do you spend your time making sure we know you're innocent, or gathering evidence against the scum?
Shake: Drakon left having said very little, making it almost impossible to figure you out from his posts.  Do you think this is to your advantage or not?  Also, would you fakeclaim cop at this stage in the game, and how and why?
Andrew: what is your strategy for copping?  Is there anything you wish you could have done differently on D2, when everyone suspected you more?

[Shakerag]

Shark: Going back and looking through the thread, you seemed to come down pretty heavy on Andrew.  Given his play throughout this game, what is making you feel that he's telling the truth instead of being fakeclaiming scum?

Hypothetically speaking, if Andrew really is a cop and telling the truth, and Remalle isn't a godfather, then from my perspective you (Shark) are trying to bus your partner (Shoes).  That would be kind of a risky tactic at LYLO, even though you likely would shoot Andrew N3.  Given how many people have voted you for "most townie" this game, the odds of Remalle and I both voting for you D4 would be pretty low ... Maybe not so risky after all.  An interesting situation, and it does cast you yelling at Shoes multiple times to get in the game and play in a different light ...

FAKE EDIT:  I'll respond to Shark's and Remalle's posts in a while, PFP. 

[Shakerag]

unvote Remalle

Remalle: Hmm.  Okay, you seemed to respond to my points in stride, and I can follow your logic on the Toaster NK.  I've actually seen something like that mentioned in a few other games as well.  Responding to your questions:  I'm not sure whether Drakon's previous posts work to my favor or not.  Certainly if someone is replaced, then you have to look at their "lurking" in a bit of a different light.  I think replacements are difficult to deal with, but I will make the best of the rest of the game. 

I'm not really sure what benefit fakeclaiming cop would give me at this point.  I assume that that tactic is one almost exclusively done by the scumteam.  Or are you just asking hypothetically? 

Also, how strongly do you believe Andrew's cop claim?  If he were scum, it would be easy to claim to have investigated two townies. 

Andrew: Do you think it's possible Remalle is a godfather?  Depending on how exactly the roles are determined, there could be a 25% or 50% chance he is one.  Since this is LYLO, do you feel you should still be focusing on him?

Shark: I'm not really liking your reasoning here.  You're admitting that there are possibilities of Andrew lying and Remalle being a godfather, but you're choosing to ignore that.  I would expect that LYLO is a time to be *very* cautious and examine things in detail, but your behavior doesn't seem to be reflecting that.  Also, you didn't address my point about roles being guaranteed because of Think's line. 

I'd really like to hear from you how I'm defending Shoes, because my first post wasn't exactly painting him in a positive light. 

I'm not calling you "jumpy" because of any issue with the time or possibility of hammering, but by your posting style.  You seem much more nervous and not quite as collected as you did on D1 and D2. 

I've said what I think about Andrew's cop claim.  It's something to consider, but the possibility of it being false is still there. 

In so far as Remalle is concerned, he's mentioned that some of the things he did were not the best choices.  And since he didn't know Andrew was a (possible) cop at the time, it's hardly fair to take that into consideration when judging who he was voting for D2. 

[ShoesandHats]

Shoes: how much time would you spend, if you were scumhunting, on investigating Shark and Shake, who are still not clear, as opposed to Andrew and I, who are possibly clear?  Also how about this situation: Andrew and I are 100% clear, and you know you're town, so you know Shark and Shake are scum.  Do you spend your time making sure we know you're innocent, or gathering evidence against the scum?

I would spend a little more time on Shark and Shake, but just about the same amount for you and Andrew. Why would I try to prove my innocence? Scumhunting in it and of itself is partly essential to proving your innocence.

Andrew

Why the hell would you ever reveal that your a cop? Now the scum are going to nightkill you for sure. Name some reasons why you would do that.

[Andrew425]

Andrew: what is your strategy for copping?  Is there anything you wish you could have done differently on D2, when everyone suspected you more?

I didn't know what to do as cop, so my strategy was to go out guns a blazing and try to get someone to slip up when they accuse me and then if it was a toss up between who was going to get lynched I would claim cop and then the town would know that even if I got lynched that day they had good leads for the next day.

Andrew: Do you think it's possible Remalle is a godfather?  Depending on how exactly the roles are determined, there could be a 25% or 50% chance he is one.  Since this is LYLO, do you feel you should still be focusing on him?

I think it is definitely possible that he could be the godfather but I think that probability wise its a safer bet to assume that Remalle is town. Unless he makes a huge mistake I think the town shouldn't vote for him.

I've been working out some logic and I can't decide on who
Here are the scenarios

Shoes and Shark: Shark you were going hard after Shoes but you never voted for him. If this is the team voting out Shoes would be easy and it would give Shark credibility when it goes down to Remalle, Shakerag and Shark

Shoes and Shakerag: Drakon and shoes never posted much so it's hard to see if you're scum or not. Shoes did throw a vote at you during the RVS stage which makes him seem like noobscum.

Shark and Shakerag: Shark and drakon haven't communicated much and scum might do that to not draw attention to each other. This little attempt you to are doing at slinging mud at each other until you both lynch Shoes for inactivity could be a good play but I don't think that you're doing that.

Remalle being the godfather would pretty much screw us over as we would have an extremely difficult time to win.


I think the safe lynch would be to pick Shoes because if he was town he's screwing us over enough by not posting enough.

Though this is lylo and maybe it isn't time to be safe? Considering that if we pick the target at random the chance of us lynching scum is 66% (If Remalle is not the Godfather)

I just have a feeling that right now the scum is scurrying around thinking of brilliant plan and then they are going to play the town like a fiddle. I've read of a few of the games that Jim has played and when he is scum their is absolutely no reason to suspect him when he gets to lylo. The towns that win in these situations are the towns who just vote without reason. Of course their is the possibility that if I or someone else rereads this thread again and again and is able to link the two scumbuddies together.

Everybody What is your opinion of voting randomly? If out of the three of you 2 think its a bad idea and 1 thinks it's a good idea do you think that would that help confirm who scum and who isn't?


He posted this as I was typing so here's my answer

Andrew

Why the hell would you ever reveal that your a cop? Now the scum are going to nightkill you for sure. Name some reasons why you would do that.

I revealed myself as the cop because otherwise lylo is a crapshoot for town. By being able to confirm 2 town players I dropped the chance that we would mislynch from 60% to 33%

Yes i'm going to get nightkilled unless a doctor saves me, but thats fine as we'd go into the next day with a 50/50 chance.

Shoes If their was a doctor do you think it would be a good idea to claim tonight?

[Shark]

I'll say this first. On the start of N1, think says (not exact quote) "people with actions, send them in." N2 he says "Power roles and Mafia send in actions." This really seems to suggest power roles to me, I don't know why people would think otherwise.

"Not at this point in the game.  Doctor only has at most one more night to operate anyway.  The cop needs to stay alive tonight, so the doctor will protect him, the cop investigates either of the two other players, the doctor will die, and the game goes into lylo with the cop having the answer.  That gives the town the best possible odds.  So the doctor HAS to claim so the cop knows who not to investigate."

Makes sense, Remalle. My bad.

Shake, i'm not considering Remalle being a godfather because he's hunted well, and purely statistically, there's a 5.55% chance.

Also, "Shark: I'm not really liking your reasoning here.  You're admitting that there are possibilities of Andrew lying and Remalle being a godfather, but you're choosing to ignore that.  I would expect that LYLO is a time to be *very* cautious and examine things in detail, but your behavior doesn't seem to be reflecting that.  Also, you didn't address my point about roles being guaranteed because of Think's line.  "

In this time to be "very cautious" you're basically OMGUSing. Your vote boils down to me not being cautious enough. You don't address my reasons for that I have legitimate reasons to vote shoes at all. You're ignoring what I say about him, and you're telling me it seems "nervous." Do you believe I shouldn't be voting shoes? He hasn't done ANYTHING, and all he's done recently is yell at andrew. If andrew is telling the truth, shoes is yelling at the cop for helping the town out. Shoes is just really scummy, no matter if andrew is lying or not.

In this mess, you're telling us to BE CAUTIOUS? This is the time to be active, we can't screw up. If we sit around, nothing will get done. You're trying to slow us down. Even if andrew is lying, shoes is still a good choice, and some of your argument against me involves that i'm being too hasty. I don't know what we're waiting for but i'm going to do my best to convince everyone to hang shoes because I think he's far scummier than andrew, remalle, and you.

You seem to be angry at me for voting shoes when you're telling me to be cautious, yet you're not displaying the same caution you say I should be doing. You voted before me, and your vote didn't really have meat behind it. It was "I feel like" "It seems like" this and that, and LYLO is not the time for things that seem suspicious. It's for things that are suspicious.

This doesn't really involve if andrew's lying or not anymore. You're going after me, being vague about how i'm "jumpy" and "nervous", and voting me. Good job "examining things in detail" like you're telling me to. Also, you call me "less collective" just because i'm posting more often then I usually do. It's LYLO, i'm going to be as active as possible. (Until skyrim comes out)

Unless shoes defends himself or someone else does, I will continue my case against him.

Remalle points out how bad the scum plays were, killing the IC's. It's either a lazy thing to do or a just bad thing to do. From shoes, and drakon before his replacement, we have seen a combination of bad and lazy.

Also, main reason I believe andrew, once again, is because he doesn't have too much to gain. The only thing I can see happening is if he's scum and he doesn't care if his partner dies, but that's risky as hell to me, because if he is scum, he could have made a better claim. Call two living people innocent. Get the person he wants dead, dead. If he is scum, I seriously doubt remalle would be his partner from what we saw D2. The claim is just not useful enough to him if he's lying, because of the chance of a counterclaim.

I could be wrong but any way I look at it andrew is probably the cop, and knowing who he's investigated and who I am, this means I've found the scum. Starting with shoes. You want me to not lead a lynch against shoes? Find a reason he shouldn't die for being a burden on the town.

[ShoesandHats]

Shoes If their was a doctor do you think it would be a good idea to claim tonight?

No. As far as I know, there is absolutely no reason at all to ever claim doctor. Why would you?

[Andrew425]

My response is much the same as shark. Claiming doctor would be an interesting thing. If a scum member claimed doctor he'd probably be able to fool us to vote someone else. If their is a doctor in this game, coming out would make it so we could get to the next day without much trouble. He of course would likely die during the night but it would leave me and Remalle able to vote out the last guy. If the doctor stays hidden their is a chance of us mislynching him today but it would let him protect me and we might not be in lylo the following day.

I think its a safer bet to come out as we have a good chance of winning if he does

[Remalle]

Remalle being the godfather would pretty much screw us over as we would have an extremely difficult time to win.

Heh, that makes me sound like such a mastermind.  If I was the godfather I would be laughing evilly at this point (I'm not laughing, so I must not be).

Shoes: how much time would you spend, if you were scumhunting, on investigating Shark and Shake, who are still not clear, as opposed to Andrew and I, who are possibly clear?  Also how about this situation: Andrew and I are 100% clear, and you know you're town, so you know Shark and Shake are scum.  Do you spend your time making sure we know you're innocent, or gathering evidence against the scum?

I would spend a little more time on Shark and Shake, but just about the same amount for you and Andrew. Why would I try to prove my innocence? Scumhunting in it and of itself is partly essential to proving your innocence.
Andrew
Why the hell would you ever reveal that your a cop? Now the scum are going to nightkill you for sure. Name some reasons why you would do that.

I'm not seeing any scumhunting.  Are you implicating yourself?  And Andrew's already addressed the question, but... I mean, use some common sense here, it's lylo, he's bettering the odds for the town (or playing a good scum game, but I doubt that after thinking about it, because he could have just as easily cleared his scumbuddy instead of me if he was fake claiming).

Everybody What is your opinion of voting randomly? If out of the three of you 2 think its a bad idea and 1 thinks it's a good idea do you think that would that help confirm who scum and who isn't?

I think random lynching should be an absolute last resort.  We have the entire day to find two mafia, we should use it for exactly that.  For the second question, to put it simply, no.

Shoes If their was a doctor do you think it would be a good idea to claim tonight?

No. As far as I know, there is absolutely no reason at all to ever claim doctor. Why would you?

See: my previous post, in which I specify exactly why the doctor claiming is the best possible play at this point in time.

[Toaster]

I'll say this first. On the start of N1, think says (not exact quote) "people with actions, send them in." N2 he says "Power roles and Mafia send in actions." This really seems to suggest power roles to me, I don't know why people would think otherwise.

If Think is a good mod (He is, as far as I can tell) he would say this anyway.  Don't try to outguess the mod.

[Think0028]

Re: me being a good mod, *cough day 2 cough*. That said, do not try to outguess the mod.

Votecount:

Shoesandhats [1] - Shark
Shark [1] - Shakerag
Not Voting [3] - Shoesandhats, Remalle, andrew425

[Shakerag]

Shake, i'm not considering Remalle being a godfather because he's hunted well, and purely statistically, there's a 5.55% chance.

Okay, but "good" scum would appear to be scumhunting well too.  And how did you come to 5.55% chance?

Think: If you can tell us, how exactly are the power roles for the scumteam assigned?  50/50 of role existing and then 50/50 amongst the members or how?

In this time to be "very cautious" you're basically OMGUSing.

wat

Your vote boils down to me not being cautious enough. You don't address my reasons for that I have legitimate reasons to vote shoes at all. You're ignoring what I say about him, and you're telling me it seems "nervous." Do you believe I shouldn't be voting shoes? He hasn't done ANYTHING, and all he's done recently is yell at andrew. If andrew is telling the truth, shoes is yelling at the cop for helping the town out. Shoes is just really scummy, no matter if andrew is lying or not.

You keep bringing the topic back to your voting Shoes and my opinion of it.  I have barely touched on that at all, and yet you keep mentioning it.  Yes, I get that you think he's scum, okay.  Hell, if this weren't LYLO I would have been voting him already myself.  However, now I'm trying to figure out if he really is scum or if he's just really ... um ... unorthodox. 

In this mess, you're telling us to BE CAUTIOUS? This is the time to be active, we can't screw up. If we sit around, nothing will get done. You're trying to slow us down. Even if andrew is lying, shoes is still a good choice, and some of your argument against me involves that i'm being too hasty. I don't know what we're waiting for but i'm going to do my best to convince everyone to hang shoes because I think he's far scummier than andrew, remalle, and you.

Easy there, cowboy.  I'm not saying to be inactive.  Clearly I've been trying to stir up activity myself by asking questions and making observations.  By saying "be cautious" I mean to take a good re-look at everything said and done so far, and to not just blaze ahead without thinking things through carefully.  My gut feeling is telling me to go ahead and lynch Shoes, but we've got until Monday (before extensions) to make absolutely sure we've found who's scum.

You seem to be angry at me for voting shoes when you're telling me to be cautious, yet you're not displaying the same caution you say I should be doing. You voted before me, and your vote didn't really have meat behind it. It was "I feel like" "It seems like" this and that, and LYLO is not the time for things that seem suspicious. It's for things that are suspicious.

This doesn't really involve if andrew's lying or not anymore. You're going after me, being vague about how i'm "jumpy" and "nervous", and voting me. Good job "examining things in detail" like you're telling me to. Also, you call me "less collective" just because i'm posting more often then I usually do. It's LYLO, i'm going to be as active as possible. (Until skyrim comes out)

There's that shoes thing again.  And how is my voting of you not exercising caution?  Again - day doesn't end until Monday and there's no hammer.  Your reaction to being voted isn't really lowering my suspicions of you. 

I could be wrong but any way I look at it andrew is probably the cop, and knowing who he's investigated and who I am, this means I've found the scum.

And, again, from my point of view you and Shoes would have to be scum were Andrew's claim true.  You/shoes and me/shoes can't both be the scumteam at the same time.  So if Andrew really is telling the truth, and Remalle really isn't a godfather, then one or both of us have to be lying.

Starting with shoes. You want me to not lead a lynch against shoes? Find a reason he shouldn't die for being a burden on the town.

While I can't disagree with you, I think I want to spend a little more time that we have available to make sure he isn't really newbtown that somehow survived to LYLO via serendipity. 

Shoes: I'd really like you to answer my earlier request of giving me your thoughts on the remaining survivors.  To add to that, please explain to me why you're ... oh, I don't know ... completely and totally ignoring Shark trying to convince everyone that you need to hang.