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Author Topic: The final frontier...  (Read 11596 times)

MonkeyHead

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #120 on: October 25, 2011, 01:18:58 pm »

No - Equatorial sites are easier to launch from due to Earths oblate spherosity making it essier to get up there (which explains the choices of Russia and the USA for thier launch sites), and also meas that forces caused by the rotation of the Earth on the elevator system act in the same plane as the structure, making simpler engineering possible, if a cable into space can be called simple. Also, geostationary sats need to be above the equator...

Il Palazzo

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #121 on: October 25, 2011, 01:22:41 pm »

The whole idea is to have it support itself thanks to the centrifugal force acting on the counterweight placed beyond the geosynchronous orbit(which is ~40 000 km above Earth surface) which would be balanced to counteract the inward force of gravitational attraction.
You can't have a centrifugal force without rotation, so poles are a no-no. Also, anywhere else than the general vicinity of the equator would not make it "stand straight" as the two forces would not act along the same line.
I seem to be forgetting my physics since I don't know whether that would also make it unstable or not.
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Micro102

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #122 on: October 25, 2011, 01:46:29 pm »

I never got how a space elevator could be possible. Possible to build yes, but don't hundreds of objects collide with earth's atmosphere every day, only to get burned up? If you build something that extends past the atmosphere, won't their be a lot of problems with all the debris hitting it?
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MonkeyHead

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #123 on: October 25, 2011, 01:55:09 pm »

Compare surface area of ISS to that of entire Earth. The ISS gets by fine doesnt it, even if once in a while they have to have a lockdown due to possible debris...

TheBronzePickle

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #124 on: October 25, 2011, 02:45:24 pm »

The space elevator could be shielded from debris after it's finished by bringing up plating on the elevator. Honestly, once the elevator was up it would become many times easier to lift large and heavy resources into space, making protection and maintenance of space-based machinery much more viable.
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Virex

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #125 on: October 25, 2011, 03:03:15 pm »

Full shielding would probably be too heavy, but local shielding would be possible. Nearly all large debris is in low-earth orbit anyway, and the cable itself can take the impact of a micrometeorite anyway, else it couldn't support it's own weight.

Well, the danger in doing that is roughly equal to the danger in driving a car - in case of an accident up to maybe a dozen people will die.
Space elevator collapsing would probably end up being a major disaster in more than a dozen countries.

Um no.  A space elevator would be immensely heavy but that weight spread out over many hundreds of miles, most of it out where the atmosphere is very thin.  So if you severed it, most of it would continue it's orbit for quite some time.  Any collapse would have plenty of warning and would be very light damage over a wide area.
Ha! Speculative! Here's more: Wherever it breaks, one part of it would fly away and the other would fall. It might not be an Earth-shattering disaster, probably more comparable to lots of planes crashing at once, but even the evacuated population centers on its path would take some damage to the infrastructue and housing. And if you think about the popular resistance to having much less dangerous objects constructed in the vicinity of populated areas(nuclear plants, radio towers) then I don't believe something potentially more destructive would get the approval of whomever might be affected.
Of course, the exact amount of damage would depend on the point of severance and how well would the thing burn in the atmosphere.

Just so you know, I only argue this point despite not having anything new to say other than what was already mentioned in this thread because:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You're forgetting that the mass/surface area ratio for a space elevator would be in the order of grams per square meter, anything more would cause the mass of the cable to be too much for it's tensile strength, even when using carbon nanotubes. That's about the same ratio as a sheet of paper and dropping a sheet of paper, however large, from orbit isn't going to do much of anything.
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Micro102

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #126 on: October 25, 2011, 03:17:37 pm »

Full shielding would probably be too heavy, but local shielding would be possible. Nearly all large debris is in low-earth orbit anyway, and the cable itself can take the impact of a micrometeorite anyway, else it couldn't support it's own weight.

Well, the danger in doing that is roughly equal to the danger in driving a car - in case of an accident up to maybe a dozen people will die.
Space elevator collapsing would probably end up being a major disaster in more than a dozen countries.

Um no.  A space elevator would be immensely heavy but that weight spread out over many hundreds of miles, most of it out where the atmosphere is very thin.  So if you severed it, most of it would continue it's orbit for quite some time.  Any collapse would have plenty of warning and would be very light damage over a wide area.
Ha! Speculative! Here's more: Wherever it breaks, one part of it would fly away and the other would fall. It might not be an Earth-shattering disaster, probably more comparable to lots of planes crashing at once, but even the evacuated population centers on its path would take some damage to the infrastructue and housing. And if you think about the popular resistance to having much less dangerous objects constructed in the vicinity of populated areas(nuclear plants, radio towers) then I don't believe something potentially more destructive would get the approval of whomever might be affected.
Of course, the exact amount of damage would depend on the point of severance and how well would the thing burn in the atmosphere.

Just so you know, I only argue this point despite not having anything new to say other than what was already mentioned in this thread because:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You're forgetting that the mass/surface area ratio for a space elevator would be in the order of grams per square meter, anything more would cause the mass of the cable to be too much for it's tensile strength, even when using carbon nanotubes. That's about the same ratio as a sheet of paper and dropping a sheet of paper, however large, from orbit isn't going to do much of anything.

Well is that sheet of paper going to protect it from meteors?
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MonkeyHead

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2011, 03:23:32 pm »

Paper made of carbon nanotubes? Pretty much yes.

Virex

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #128 on: October 25, 2011, 03:25:14 pm »

Bucky paper is pretty lousy when it comes to tensile strength IIRC scratch that, when layered on top of itself it's a lot tougher than steel apparently. How the hell did we cut that stuff with a pair of siccors anyway? But a carbon nanotube cable is slated to be tougher still due to the tensile strength already working on it as well as the weaving of the tubes instead of just intertwining them. It's probably tough enough to survive micrometeorites with minimal maintenance. Anything bigger can be tracked with radar and appropriate precautions can be taken, such as movable shielding.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 03:29:59 pm by Virex »
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Necro910

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #129 on: October 25, 2011, 03:43:55 pm »

Bucky paper is pretty lousy when it comes to tensile strength IIRC scratch that, when layered on top of itself it's a lot tougher than steel apparently. How the hell did we cut that stuff with a pair of siccors anyway? But a carbon nanotube cable is slated to be tougher still due to the tensile strength already working on it as well as the weaving of the tubes instead of just intertwining them. It's probably tough enough to survive micrometeorites with minimal maintenance. Anything bigger can be tracked with radar and appropriate precautions can be taken, such as movable shielding.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #130 on: October 25, 2011, 04:26:17 pm »

First off, space-based resources have a lot more potential than a lot of people seem to think. Outside of exotics like iridium (currently known to exist only in asteroids, as all known earthly deposits have been linked to impacts) even basics like iron would very profitable. Not only for shipment to Earth (if refined oribitally or on Luna, and shipped back as pure metal, the costs would probably be noticably lower than earth-based mines after the inital investment, which would admittedly be expensive), but would form the backbone of lunar or martian use, as there would be no need to escape Earth's gravity well.

Second, as long as nitrogen and water were supplied (ice-based asteroids are theorized to exist, and of course there's water known to exist on Mars, so Earth is not the only source) Luna could be used as a massive farm because the extreme amounts of free electricity available would allow deep layers of farmland. That alone could justify the expense, potentially producing as much food as Earth does today. Besides the obvious benefits for self-support, this would effectively eliminate Earth's food problems. Forever. (There is, of course, one limitation to that, which is that water and nitrates would have to regularly be returned to replace losses. If an elevator or nuclear-powered EM catapult were used ot launch form Earth, the cost of such shipments would be negligible.)

Third, these are dead worlds. There's no ecosystem to destroy. Thus, there is a significant ecological benefit to moving as much industry as possible there. In fact, pollution would actually be a good thing in some cases (Carbon dioxide, a prominent pollutant, would be of great agricultural use, and might even help in any martian transforming efforts. )

As for transshipment, it is better in all ways for a planet's moon to be used for shipments to and from the planet. The more massive an object is, the more energy is  needed to land it safely. Because of a moon's lower gravity, less thrust is needed to overcome the acceleration and land safely. Thus, it's easier to land on the moon without crashing than it is on Earth. Besides this, if a crash does occur, there will be much less risk of disaster because thue bulk of the population will be deep underground and thus immune to harm. However, larger vessels move cargo more quickly and efficiently. Thus, it would be most practical, to, for example, use a 2000 ton freighter, land it on the moon, and difide it's cargo into 100 twenty-ton shipments. If one of those went ary, the danger would be far less than if the whole ship crashed.

In reverse, sending 200  individual shipments back up would only ever require you to generate enough push to launch twenty tons at one time (you'd have to do it 200 times, of course, well within current capabilities. These could then be gathered on the moon, loaded onto the freighter, and go onward to their destination.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #131 on: October 25, 2011, 05:01:26 pm »

You're forgetting that the mass/surface area ratio for a space elevator would be in the order of grams per square meter, anything more would cause the mass of the cable to be too much for it's tensile strength, even when using carbon nanotubes. That's about the same ratio as a sheet of paper and dropping a sheet of paper, however large, from orbit isn't going to do much of anything.
How exactly do you picture the cable? As a hollow cylinder with walls made of monolayer tubes or what?
Let's say(completely arbitrarily) it'd be a 1 m diameter solid cable(so roughly counting 1m2 cross-section). Every metre of its length will weigh over a ton. And that's not even counting any gear attached to it as a means of lifting payloads.
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Virex

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #132 on: October 25, 2011, 05:12:23 pm »

Most publications, such as this one speak of cable diameters in the order of ~10 cm, yielding a diameter of ca. 2*10-3 m2. At a density of 1 kg per m3, a kilometer of cable would weigh about a kilo. Assuming a break at 800 km up, (height of most satellites and as such the most debris) and assuming the cable does not burn up at all, you're looking at the weight of a small car coming down, with the impact force spread out over 800 km. If we take a more realistic approach and assume that only the lowest 50 km will survive, either due to the atmosphere or due to engineered self-destruction of the cable, you're down to the weight of a fridge.
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TheBronzePickle

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #133 on: October 25, 2011, 05:18:49 pm »

I actually saw a report that didn't even specify a 'cable' so much as a long ribbon of flat material. Of course, said report may be fairly outdated, so it's probably not the best thing to bring up.
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Virex

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Re: The final frontier...
« Reply #134 on: October 25, 2011, 05:25:58 pm »

That's also an option, as long as the structure has a tapering ratio of at least 1.5 (meaning the space-side is 1.5 times as broad as the planet-side) you can make any shape convenient out of it, with the ratio of the mass of the gondolas to the tensile strength of the material determining the width. Now, carbon nanotube cable has a tensile strength of, say, 75 times larger than the tensile strength of steel (the theoretical value is closer to a factor 100, but we'll take a lot of leeway here), so imagine the kind of cables used by suspension bridges, take them together and divide the whole thing by 75. You now have a carbon nanotube cable strong enough to lift the whole suspension bridge.
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