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[Ultima Ratio Regum]

I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.

Basically, no monsters, magic, dragons, astrology, or anything else. However, there will, one day, be a few strange happenings, but I intend to keep their nature very unclear within the game.

Thanks for the responses! Always interesting to read.

However, cults will have far more human-scale gameplay effect than cults - in fact, see tomorrow's blog entry for more on this!

Hmmm?

Whoops. Cults have more human-scale effect than RELIGIONS.

About genders, I think there should be some differences when it comes to genders. When my character dies and my heir is a woman, I should face some problems if the civ is male-oriented and vice versa. I'm not sure about it myself though.

That makes sense. Civs vary according to whether they prefer men/women/either on the throne, so I guess that could reasonably carry over into all walks of life for that civ, actually.

Oh yeah, I'm just saying that we all know what's fitting for a relatively historically accurate strategy game and what isn't by heart, it's just that the definition of 'fantasy' is a little... blurry.
I think the word choice 'fantasy' isn't exactly accurate when URR said 'There isn't any FANTASY element in the game', though I generally agree that its the best word to describe it.
We all have this firm idea in the back of our heads what is right and what is not right, and trying to ramshackle the definition of Fantasy for the game is going to be very, very hard, to say the least.
I guess we are trying to almost re-invent the term fantasy here, or rather, trying to re-define it.

Yeah, I'm using fantasy to mean both "high" and "low" fantasy, but there's another category I consider to be different, and that's the kind of thing I'm mentioning, in a roundabout way. But I don't want to say too much about that until I have some it implemented, and it is still a way off...

I think we can say "THERE IS NO SPELLS AND DRAGONS AND ALIENS AND SHIT" as a short version. That covers most of the fantasy stuff.

Ah, why we are talking about this issue this much? Let's just call it "there won't be unrealistic stuff in this game" and be done with it.

Agreed. And yes! There might one day be a bit of "weird" stuff, though.

Ba-dum-tish! No hard feelings.

I have a question about fantasy stuff though. What should we expect from dungeons, crypts and alike? I know there won't be anything supernatural but what will make them interesting then? I remember URR mentioned puzzles (correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm... puzzled by that answer. Solving a puzzle in a roguelike sounds like a Call of Duty point-and-click game. Just seems weird and out of genre. There are probably RL puzzles too but I have never encountered them.

Ah, you've hit upon the fundamental question. I spent a long time considering this, and it basically boils down to - in the absence of monsters, foes, magic, etc, how does one make dungeons (in the broadest sense of the word) interesting? I've given this a lot of thought, but basically, they boil down to several aspects:

1) Appearance - I'm working on a very detailed generator at the moment, which works in 3 dimensions (some rooms can be particularly tall, have ramps, bridges, whatever), but there are also a number of "themes" that overlay the entire dungeon - sandy, overgrown, flooded, frozen, etc, and that will affect where/what you can/can't access within the dungeon. I want them to be enjoyable to explore purely from the perspective of being unusual, interesting and visually appealing (and unique!) every time you enter one.

2) Puzzles - yeeees, this is still being worked on, but I'm increasingly planning to include dungeons in the next release, so I'm sure I'll say more about this in the future, but basically I'm working on a generator which can produce procedural puzzles, though not all of them are explicitly "puzzles". Hmm. That's not very clear. Basically, there will be a lot of interactions within dungeons, which could broadly be classed as "puzzles", and will have various methods for getting through them, or solving them, or unlocking the next door, or things like that. Not just Skyrim's little spinning things with snakes on.

3) NPCs - of course, they will be few and far between, but you will bump into other NPCs in dungeons. Maybe a black market? Maybe another explorer? Maybe someone who got lost, or a crusader seeking the same artefact as you, or a ruined army taking refuge, or a cultist, or someone else.

4) Bosses - I'm not saying a thing on this until a lot later, but I have six major ideas for "bosses" that can appear in dungeons. Naturally, not all of them are combat-based.

5) Mutual interactions - dungeons of the same civilizations will interact with each other. Some might give you hints to other dungeons from that civ, or things like that. Additionally, languages will be a vital component of dungeons:

6) Murals, sculptures, etc - dungeons are going to be full of procedural sculptures, murals etc (which will actually be illustrated, like the generated main menu picture) which both give you hints about the dungeon, information about the civilization, information about languages, etc. This ties into point 1, really, that dungeons should be pleasing and interesting to explore on their own merits.

Hope that answers that a bit!

In the mean time, this week's blog entry on history generation, religions and cults, which should answer in more detail some of the earlier questions: http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2013/01/22/history-generation-ii-religions-cults/

[Man of Paper]

After reading the blog entry, I imagined the scenario of a King's most trusted adviser secretly pulling strings to increase the influence of the cult he secretly follows. Corrupting the king (in a non-fantasy aspect), possibly poisoning him to keep him pliable. Similar to Wormtongue (Lord of the Rings).

If you massacre a number of cults, would it be possible for other cults to recognize your hostility to the "lesser" beliefs and immediately have a negative or hostile opinion of the PC?

Will religions evolve over time as our "modern" religions have to incorporate various different tenets/beliefs?

I've gently caressed the topic of torture previously, but forgot to ask something: with a wide variety of options for careers available to the PC after character creation, will there be the option to become a Captain of the Guard, Royal Torturer, or Executioner?
How about the other positions based around a leader's court or advisers? Being on a secondary or tertiary tier of the political system, maybe even lower on the ladder, would be interesting to play as you use your mind to outmaneuver your "allies" to grab at the next step up.

With dungeons, especially more ancient ones, will we see nifty traps? While many people think trapped ruins are something of Indiana Jones-esque fantasy, I know of at least one tomb in China that still isn't fully explored due to the danger of delving further into it. Maybe have some text pop up (You hear a gentle *click* or You feel something tug on your ankle.) before the trap activates depending on the trigger, giving the PC a moment to react before they get arrow'd/boulder'd/pitted/buried alive.

What about the use of "alchemy"? Something that some civs may perceive as magic but what we know is science?

Also, on a totally different tangent (as you may have noticed is my M.O. by now), will you be able to set up suppliers as a merchant or craftsman? If I'm a metalsmith I'd rather spend all my time beating the hell out of some hot metal than punching rocks. Will royal commissions also be possible? For example, if a civ is going to war but is short on equipment, would it be possible to see them request that local smiths mass produce arms and armor at a base price?
Will the medical "profession" (since it was practically guesswork in many cases back then) be open to the PC as well? If so, how will the more complex procedures be handled?

Keep up the great work.

EDIT: Changed out the yellow color. Holy balls, my eyes.

[Rowanas]

Man of paper, a couple of things you and URR have mentioned have brought up something I want to ask. If commissions and requests exist, it would make sense to include it in the same vein as trades. For personal scale, legal trades, a local market would be a place to deal in both items and promises (Commission a local blacksmith to construct armour for you and half a dozen good men in return for partial prepayment), personal scale, illegal trades could be carried out at either a location in-city or at a local black market or dive bar located in a dungeon or ruin (organised murders to improve your position, following someone to an illegal sanctuary to hold over them as blackmail, illegal drugs and other shady deals). Larger scale deals would generally require meeting someone much higher up the chain, or making a variety of smaller deals, like visiting a local lord for a militay commission, gathering an alliance of merchants to peddle your war loot, or meeting a tribal chieftain to gather promised support for an upcoming campaign.

I don't see that any of these need specialised interfaces, honestly. It seems to me that the basic structure of Give/Promise A in return for Give/Promise B would work neatly for everything, and provide a vast scope for trading, wheeling and dealing. Even better if you can namedrop other people to bolster your petition ("The clans of Anglia, Gallaway and Fife have already pledged their swords and pastures to our victory", or "I have received a commission and early payment from The Regent for one thousand swords, although I understand if his gold isn't good enough). The red words denote names and agreements (I think "contract" is probably the best catch-all term) that you've already made. Such a system would also mke it easy to keep track of contracts via an information screen, perhaps with tabs for military, economic and other types of contract, and also, of course, the person or group with whom the contract was made.

[Neonivek]

no magic, astrology,

Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?

I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.

[peskyninja]

I've played the first versions, and stoped until today. When fisrt creating a world, something amused me, there are actually planets. Not only restricted to th eone where you play but a whole solar system. But can someone clarify what will be possible to do with them inthe future versions?

[Graknorke]

I've played the first versions, and stoped until today. When fisrt creating a world, something amused me, there are actually planets. Not only restricted to th eone where you play but a whole solar system. But can someone clarify what will be possible to do with them inthe future versions?

As far as I can tell it's for flavour later, and maybe may come up in religious business.
Then again, I've been wrong so far. A lot.

[Edmus]

no magic, astrology,

Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?

I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.

He said there will there be witches.

[Graknorke]

no magic, astrology,

Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?

I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.

He said there will there be witches.

Witches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.
Like how witches have always worked.

[Lightningfalcon]

This looks like an awesome game.  Will play once I get some time cleared up.  In the meantime I'm posting to watch. 

[Neonivek]

Witches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.
Like how witches have always worked

Actually it is quite complex though you have caught onto one of the major uses of Witch hunts. They are there to be used against your enemies.

I heard that the witch hunts in france was actually a anti-women measure to keep them pacified so to speak.

Though everyone always looks at the Witch Hunts in terms of "Religion is evil" when it is actually a lot more complex then that and for once, actually a bit more removed from religion (I believe the Catholic church's stance in this time period was that not only do witches not exist, as it goes against their teachings, but that believing they do is a form of heresy).

Though what exactly is "religions fault" and what is people "using religion as a weapon" is a hard line to really pull.

[Edmus]

no magic, astrology,

Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?

I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.

He said there will there be witches.

Witches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.
Like how witches have always worked.

Yeah, fake magic made up by the rich.

[Graknorke]

Witches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.
Like how witches have always worked

Actually it is quite complex though you have caught onto one of the major uses of Witch hunts. They are there to be used against your enemies.

I heard that the witch hunts in france was actually a anti-women measure to keep them pacified so to speak.

Though everyone always looks at the Witch Hunts in terms of "Religion is evil" when it is actually a lot more complex then that and for once, actually a bit more removed from religion (I believe the Catholic church's stance in this time period was that not only do witches not exist, as it goes against their teachings, but that believing they do is a form of heresy).

Though what exactly is "religions fault" and what is people "using religion as a weapon" is a hard line to really pull.

Well, witches are in the Bible.
http://bible.cc/exodus/22-18.htm
So... I don't know. Different interpretations or something. People are weird.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I assumed it was more of a 'poor people are evil and we want what you rightfully have because you can't protect yourself' kinda thing

[Graknorke]

I assumed it was more of a 'poor people are evil and we want what you rightfully have because you can't protect yourself' kinda thing

Yeah, pretty much. Except it was less what the person had and more what the person did. Like if there was an old couple living on the edge of town who did medicine for people then a rich family might decide to have them tried as witches in order to sell their medical abilities to people who would have otherwise gone to the "witches".

[Leatra]

Well, I don't know much about witches (we had shamans, who were tolerated by the ruler anyway) but is there going to be civs where witches are allowed to live? What will be our interactions with them?